Who to vote for?

[pk]

dulwichbloke Wrote:

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> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > dulwichbloke Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Nothing to see here, move along now...

> > >

> > > 70 serving and former Labour staff members

> have

> > > now come forward as whistleblowers to the

> EHRC.

> > >

> > > This has just appeared on Sky news:

> > >

> > > At a press conference held by JLM and its

> > lawyers

> > > on Friday, whistleblower Sam Matthews, who

> was

> > > head of disputes at Labour, said the

> > "intolerable"

> > > problem of antisemitism within the party had

> > left

> > > him considering taking his own life.

> > >

> > > Lord Falconer of Thoroton, a former Labour

> > Justice

> > > Secretary, said he has "the gravest concerns"

> > > about Mr Corbyn's leadership after the

> "utterly

> > > damning" dossier.

> > >

> > > He told The Times: "It's a leadership issue

> > which

> > > the leadership should have dealt with.

> > >

> > > "I believe it to be utterly damning of the

> > Labour

> > > Party. It shows strong evidence of an

> > > institutional attempt to sweep under the

> carpet

> > > evidence of antisemitism."

> > >

> > > Endorse this by voting Labour by all means,

> if

> > > your conscience is 'flexible' enough and you

> > can

> > > also persuade yourself that if a party is

> > capable

> > > of this, other groups in society that they

> > dislike

> > > would not be next if they got into power.

> > >

> > > I'm not Jewish, but I won't be voting Labour

> > again

> > > while Momentum/Corbyn and his apologists are

> in

> > > charge.

> >

> > Have you always put a lot of weight on the

> views

> > of Sam Matthews and Lord Falconer?

>

> Is there any reason you know of why I shouldn?t?

> Falconer is a former Labour Justice minister and

> one of the leading barristers in a generation (I

> think he is well used to evaluating evidence) and

> Matthews is the former Head of Investigations for

> the Labour Party. I have no idea of their

> religion (if any) - is that something you are

> referring to, or do you have some insight that

> I?ve missed.

>

> Oh, and 70 Labour staff (not just members) who are

> whistleblowers. 70! Are they all making it up too?

Given that they?re such serious individuals, I just wondered whether you respect their views on other things, or just on antisemitism in the Labour Party?

[edbloke]

As a still undecided voter, I have tried this quiz.

https://uk.isidewith.com

Multiple choice questions, some more UK-centric than others. Nonetheless, I found it useful, as it removes any emotion from the choice and gave me a clear list of parties sorted by whose manifestos most align with my beliefs. Might be useful for others in my situation.

[cella]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > What distortions of the truth would they be

> Uncle?

> > Meanwhile, if you really do want to see

> > distortions of the truth, I suggest you watch

> > Boris Johnson's car crash of an interview with

> > Andrew Marr on iplayer. I suggest you also

> revisit

> > the claims made by both sides during the

> > referendum campaign ;)

>

> I happened to see a few minutes of the

> Johnson/Marr Sunday show...Boris was there to talk

> about the London Bridge killings and Andrew marr

> asked him how many other terrorists were out after

> half a sentence- Boris said "74," Marr said

> "Answer the question"- said it all- again-

> switched off....they might as well get an

> automaton on repeatedly saying 'Answer the

> question' if Marr isn't going to listen to the

> answer.

>

> I didn't listen to ANY of the claims by either

> side during the run up to the referendum- I voted

> leave according to my own observations and

> experiences since 1973....overwhelmingly in favour

> of Leave- the EU has asset-stripped the UK

> wholesale- giving cheap loans out to non-EU

> countries like Turkey enabling them to take our

> manufacturing.

> People like Heseltine have raked in ?900,000 a

> year from the CAP.....

> And the fishing industry is a third of what it

> was- WE are a bloody island for crying out loud-

> remember the Spanish vessels using illegal nets

> and nearly wiping out our cod stocks? No I bet you

> don't....you conveniently forget the REAL damage

> done over the years...in your quest for a cheap

> extension and looking up how much your property

> has appreciated in the last 15 years.

I watched the programme but a different version obvs. Give it a rest why don't you.

[Blah Blah]

pk Wrote:

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> uncleglen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > I didn't listen to ANY of the claims by either

> > side during the run up to the referendum

>

> Sounds about right

Indeed. Although he seems perfectly able to spout out every repeated lie of the Leave side - funny that eh? He also listens to the likes of Stephen Yaxley Lennon and other far right mouthpieces, so make of that what you will.

As for nostalgia for some fake version of the past, he also seems to have forgotten the cod wars (and ignores the importance of protecting fish stocks) and seems to think Turkey of all places, are responsible for the decline of manufacturing in the UK! He clearly has conveniently forgotten the rise of Asia BEFORE we even joined the EEA and the takeoves, before asset stripping, of the 80's namely by people like Goldsmith senior. Even the Thatcher government had to do something about that.

In short, Uncle is a Farage repeated broken record, and fools no-one.

[diable rouge]

Didn't watch the Corbyn/Johnson debate last night but had to laugh (or else you'll cry) that the immediate poll afterwards as to who 'won' the debate was 52:48 in favour of Johnson.

What is more interesting is the response to further detailed questions...

Hard not to conclude that the great British public thinks it's more prime ministerial to be untrustworthy and out of touch with ordinary people...

[Rockets]

Those stats sum up Corbyn's problem very succinctly. He doesn't come across as a credible leader and all of the public debates have amplified that. He also seems to come across as someone who has to stop himself saying what he really wants to say and replaces it with a soundbite and that worries people. Labour should be walking this election but have self-destructed with their choice of leader and leadership team.

[SpringTime]

dulwichbloke Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nothing to see here, move along now...

>

> 70 serving and former Labour staff members have

> now come forward as whistleblowers to the EHRC.

>

> This has just appeared on Sky news:

>

> At a press conference held by JLM and its lawyers

> on Friday, whistleblower Sam Matthews, who was

> head of disputes at Labour, said the "intolerable"

> problem of antisemitism within the party had left

> him considering taking his own life.

>

> Lord Falconer of Thoroton, a former Labour Justice

> Secretary, said he has "the gravest concerns"

> about Mr Corbyn's leadership after the "utterly

> damning" dossier.

>

> He told The Times: "It's a leadership issue which

> the leadership should have dealt with.

>

> "I believe it to be utterly damning of the Labour

> Party. It shows strong evidence of an

> institutional attempt to sweep under the carpet

> evidence of antisemitism."

>

> Endorse this by voting Labour by all means, if

> your conscience is 'flexible' enough and you can

> also persuade yourself that if a party is capable

> of this, other groups in society that they dislike

> would not be next if they got into power.

>

> I'm not Jewish, but I won't be voting Labour again

> while Momentum/Corbyn and his apologists are in

> charge.

Yep!

[SpringTime]

cella Wrote:

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> SpringTime Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > diable rouge Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Perhaps. I'm all for exposing politicians of

> > all

> > > hues for their lies, they should never become

> > > normailsed like they have. Johnson and his

> > > henchmen are fibbing on an unprecedented

> > > industrial scale yet the right wing press

> > ignores

> > > them. This 'dossier' by old school right wing

> > Tory

> > > journalist Peter Oborne bucks the propaganda

> > > trend... https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

> >

> > Yep. He says anything and makes it up as he

> goes

> > along. Shan't vote for him, or his

> slum-landlord

> > Patel, or that

> > sleazebag-Christian-with-tonnes-of-cash-Mogg,

> even

> > if he is suspiciously quiet at the moment. It's

> > getting tough to choose. Diane Abacus is also

> > largely off the radar at the minute. The woman

> is

> > dangerously mad as well. I genuinely believe

> she's

> > a hateful racist. Can you trust her to run the

> > show when JC's on a holiday camp? Or maybe a

> > concentration camp.

> >

> > I do want to vote though. I voted leave but

> it's

> > not so important to me so that I'd have to vote

> > Tory. I can't stomach that. For my first time

> (how

> > exciting!) the LibDems and Green Party are

> > actually on the table.

>

> Good riddance then if it's either of those two

> choices. Not sure they'd welcome your views/ugly

> language.

Tory and Labour have rather ugly views at the minute and I won't moderate my tone for them Cella sorry, if that's what you meant.

[cella]

Not about moderating your tone - it's a reference to the ugly views you appear tomfreely state.

[Rockets]

Removed duplicate message

[SpringTime]

cella Wrote:

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> Not about moderating your tone - it's a reference

> to the ugly views you appear tomfreely state.

Ok

[Jules-and-Boo]

You're voting for a party, not the current leader.

[dulwichbloke]

I don?t think anyone is so daft (and I don?t think you are either) as to believe the leader in control of a party is not highly relevant to how people vote.

[diable rouge]

300...

[dulwichbloke]

They are, after all, being asked to say who should be Prime Minister and leader of the country. The person dealing with crucial decision making and other world leaders. The Labour Party are not suggesting that if elected they won?t have Jezza as PM. So, as we are seeing, his car-crash Personal ratings are obviously dragging his party down.

[cella]

He has huge personal support - just depends on who you rely on for your information and which press you choose.

[Blah Blah]

It is blatantly obvious that Corbyn is divisive. But in the light of an even divide on Brexit, would any other leader of the party be fairing any better? What might have made the difference arguably, would have been a more likeable leader making the Tories desire a GE less than they did in the end. Also, Jo Swinson could have helped steer Parliament to a vote of nc and a unity coalition, but chose not to - presumably thinking that the Libdems were about to gain at Labour's expense. Political expediency created the Brexit mess in the first place, and looks set to keep it going.

[malumbu]

An ode to Jezza (with thanks to Attila the Stockbroker)

Just look at him - he's the scourge of the land

He?s Colonel Gadaffi?s favourite man

He eats babies and he?s a commies too

And he?s got [disease of your choice) and he?ll give it to you

With scaly tails and horns and hooves

He'll undermine everything that moves

You can read about him in the daily press:

He's worse than the Russians in the DHSS [DWP]

If your telly goes wrong or your car won?t start

you can bet your life that he played his part

If your team doesn?t win or you miss the bus

then ten to one it was down to him

If a dog runs off with your copy of the Sun

and brings it back with the crossword done

If someone smacks you in the head

or you find a terrapin in your bed

He did it - and everything else as well

He imported Neighbours to these shores

He personally started both World Wars

He broke your Gran?s Coronation mugs

He sold Ben Johnson all his drugs

He caused the Plague and the Great Fire too

and we brought The Price Is Right? to you

He pushed Robert Maxwell over the side

He took Marc Bolan for his last ride

or you find a terrapin in your bed

He did it - and everything else as well

Cos he's the party leader from Hell!

[cella]

Assume this is an attempt at irony from you?

[Seabag]

cella Wrote:

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> Assume this is an attempt at irony from you?

I think wine was involved

[Rockets]

Corbyn is hugely divisive and it starts within his own party, he has isolated the moderates, failed to act on the anti-Semitism within the party and has shown weak leadership. He has been on the fringes of the party for a long time and many within the party have said for good reason and feel that what we currently see is reflective of that. Labour should be wiping the floor with the Tories but can't because Jeremy can't control the extreme fringes within his own party and then when he has been on public debates just ummed and ahh'd his way through - he is coming across as someone who knows what he really wants to say but stops himself and says something else that is likely to be far less controversial: everything from his position on Brexit to whether he watches the Queen's speech he has seemed to fudge the answers and whilst many people will see that he can't do any wrong those are not the people who will get him into power - he needs the swing voter to back him and no matter how much free stuff he offers them he appears to be struggling to get them to back him. And that is because they doubt him as a person. His background of radicalism and his links to groups that many consider unsavoury was a major concern for many in Labour when he was elected to the leadership position.

[cella]

I think Brexit is the main issue here. A lot of people who aren't normally engaged with politics just "want to get Brexit done" without much thought to what giving their vote to Johnson & co will actually mean for them and their families. A lot of those people would massively benefit from what is on offer in the Labour manifesto and even if they are swallowing a lot of what is being pushed by the massively right wing media on Jeremy Corbyn, Leaders are disposable eg Theresa May, so they shouldn't vote against their own long term interests.

[dulwichbloke]

cella Wrote:

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> He has huge personal support - just depends on who

> you rely on for your information and which press

> you choose.

No, it is not which press you choose to read. In case you have been living under a rock recently, here?s a small selection of JC?s ratings. They are major polling companies. Some of course may be relative outliers one way or another, but given the mass of similar information that?s hardly relevant as the trend shows. Net approval is the last column.

2019

Date(s)

conducted Polling organisation/client Sample size Question wording Approve Disapprove Neither Don't know Net approval

2?4 Dec Ipsos MORI 1,545 Approve/Disapprove[a] 24% 68% N/A 6% ?44%

28-30 Nov Deltapoll 1,528 Well/Badly[a] 27% 66% N/A 7% ?39%

27?29 Nov Opinium 2,018 Approve/Disapprove[a] 24% 55% N/A 21% ?31%

27-28 Nov Panelbase 2,010 Approve/Disapprove[a] 22% 58% 15% 5% ?36%

21-23 Nov Deltapoll 1,519 Well/Badly[a] 30% 64% N/A 6% ?34%

14-16 Nov Deltapoll 1,526 Well/Badly[a] 25% 68% N/A 7% ?43%

13-14 Nov Panelbase 1,021 Approve/Disapprove[a] 19% 61% 15% 5% ?42%

11-12 Nov YouGov 1,619 Approve/Disapprove[a] 24% 66% N/A 10% ?42%

6?8 Nov Panelbase 1,046 Well/Badly 20% 59% 16% 5% ?39%

6?8 Nov Deltapoll 1,518 Well/Badly[a] 22% 70% N/A 8% ?48%

31 Oct-2 Nov Deltapoll 1,500 Well/Badly[a] 25% 68% N/A 7% ?43%

30 Oct?1 Nov Opinium 2,004 Approve/Disapprove[a] 19% 59% N/A 22% ?40%

30?31 Oct Panelbase 1,001 Approve/Disapprove[a] 20% 61% 15% 4% ?41%

25-28 Oct Ipsos MORI 1,007 Approve/Disapprove[a] 15% 75% N/A 10% ?60%

23-25 Oct Opinium 2,001 Approve/Disapprove[a] 20% 60% N/A 20% ?40%

15-17 Oct Opinium 2,001 Approve/Disapprove[a] 20% 56% N/A 24% ?36%

9?11 Oct Panelbase 2,013 Approve/Disapprove[a] 20% 58% 15% 7% ?38%

3?4 Oct Opinium 2,006 Approve/Disapprove[a] 20% 58% N/A 22% ?38%

26?27 Sep YouGov 1,623 Approve/Disapprove[a] 16% 71% N/A 13% ?55%

25?27 Sep Opinium 2,007 Approve/Disapprove[a] 21% 58% N/A 21% ?37%

16?17 Sep YouGov 1,533 Well/Badly[a] 21% 70% N/A 9% ?49%

13?16 Sep Ipsos MORI 1,006 Satisfied/Dissatisfied 16% 76% N/A 8% ?60%

5?7 Sep Deltapoll 2,049 Well/Badly[a] 21% 66% N/A 13% ?45%

29?31 Aug Deltapoll 2,028 Well/Badly[a] 23% 68% N/A 9% ?45%

28?29 Aug YouGov 1,867 Approve/Disapprove[a] 13% 72% N/A 15% ?59%

21?23 Aug Opinium 2,005 Approve/Disapprove[a] 18% 60% N/A 21% ?42%

8?9 Aug Opinium 2,001 Approve/Disapprove[a] 20% 60% N/A 20% ?40%

26?30 Jul Ipsos MORI 1,007 Approve/Disapprove[a] 19% 69% N/A 12% ?50%

25-27 Jul Deltapoll 2,001 Well/Badly[a] 23% 67% N/A 10% ?44%

24?26 Jul Opinium 2,006 Approve/Disapprove[a] 19% 59% N/A 22% ?40%

3?5 July Opinium 2,002 Approve/Disapprove[a] 18% 64% 19% N/A ?46%

[malumbu]

Not really sure what you are getting out of this. Yes he not competent to be the next prime minister. Yes he has many faults.

But WTF the other bloke. I don't think that JC could drag us that far to the left as (a) resistance in his own party (b) practicalities in reversing 30 years of privitisation © the money would in deed run out (d) he couldn't achieve it all in one term.

But he was voted in by a far more sizable number than BJ, not all were extemist/rabid which is far truer of the Tory party.

Can we have some positive and practical solutions? Even the more modest spending plans by the Tories will be in pieces once the hard/harder/no deal Brexit happens.

Talking about competence have none of you heard of Attila the Stockbroker?

[Seabag]

It?s come down to ?who?s the least trustworthy? out of the two, then voting for the other one.