Who to vote for?

[cella]

I agree. It's very hard to understand why people are even considering giving their vote to Johnson. Assume they mainly want to "get Brexit done" believing that this is the end rather than the start of many years of negotiations or a very tough leave with no deal and without thinking of all the other ramifications for most people. A lot of these voters are, as you say, voting against their own interests. Depressing.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I think a lot of people feel that things have declined and that their voices have been ignored. This is why the 'take back control' slogan was so successful. The referendum felt like a once in a lifetime opportunity to really effect change and radically disrupt what was perceived by some to be a broken system. Now they feel that the same political forces that have ignored them for so long are conspiring to stop things changing.

I don't think many people are really that interested in the detail - it's more emotional than that. This was their chance to shake everything up, to stand up to an indifferent political class based in London and again, they're being silenced.

Obviously its all going to end badly.

[fishbiscuits]

Sometimes worth stepping outside of the echo chamber, and remembering that huge swathes of the country are deeply conservative. Pro-Brexit, anti-immigration, right-wing, opposing increases in taxation and spending.

The majority of people are inherently selfish and short-sighted. They'll vote for what they think is best for them and their family in the short term.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I don't know about that. I think most people vote in what they believe to be the best interests of the country. There are those that will vote in their narrow, short term interests, but they're a minority. The biggest problem is that people don't understand / aren't interested in the detail. They base their opinions on a few sensational stories and soundbites and use it to interpret their lived reality - which for many outside of London and the SE is one of things declining.

[fishbiscuits]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I think most people vote in what they believe to be the best interests of the country.

I really think you give the public more credit than they deserve!

[JohnL]

dulwichbloke Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Now this one was a car crash - Pat Mountain -

> the

> > latest UKIP leader

> >

> > Crash: "Mountain presented a copy of the Ukip

> > manifesto, which she couldn't actually reveal

> the

> > contents of because it's not being launched

> until

> > Friday."

> >

> > Bang: On Tommy Robinson "Because of his

> > association with **other** racist parties, our

> > constitution says that he cannot be permitted

> to

> > join us"

> >

> > Wallop: On Racism "Have you got any black

> > candidates?" "Erm, no...I think we've got an

> > Indian?"

>

> 'Pat Mountain' - is that name for real John? It

> sounds like a character off Father Ted.

They're saying many thought she was a Catherine Tate character.

[JohnL]

Strange how Corbyn mentioned he watches the Queens speech in the morning and everybody says Liar - she doesn't do it until 3:00PM, then he says oh you mean the 3:00PM recording.

I wonder if he's trying to be clever and a rebel (maybe someone he spends Xmas with VPN'd to Australia and he saw it early)

[dulwichbloke]

Or maybe he's a doddery old fool who makes stuff up and when called on it either doesn't have the honesty just to admit he did so, or the intelligence to talk his way out of it without digging himself a deeper hole?

Sometimes it's the obvious answer which is the correct one! I suspect the tongue in cheek speculation about Oz is probably not the explanation!

[dulwichbloke]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> The previous UKIP leader was a certain Dick

> Braine...

Brilliant! Good spot!

[JohnL]

dulwichbloke Wrote:

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> Or maybe he's a doddery old fool who makes stuff

> up and when called on it either doesn't have the

> honesty just to admit he did so, or the

> intelligence to talk his way out of it without

> digging himself a deeper hole?

>

> Sometimes it's the obvious answer which is the

> correct one! I suspect the tongue in cheek

> speculation about Oz is probably not the

> explanation!

I've never watched the Queen in years (I might if it was live just to see). Don't know why it's made such a big thing of, If the BBC put on last years speech repeated would we even notice.

Edit: It's actually when Tom Harwood suggests that his family group round the TV at 3:00PM that I realise how different his life must be to mine.

[diable rouge]

It used to be a big thing getting massive audiences, but last year only around 6.5 million watched it, or 1 in 10 of the population. So the right wing press trying to paint Corbyn as somehow being disloyal and out of sync with the UK public simply isn't true...

ETA: Heaven forbid had Corbyn decided to lie to Her Maj in order to unlawfully shut down parliament

[stepdown]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So the right wing press trying to paint Corbyn as

> somehow being disloyal and out of sync with the UK

> UK public simply isn't true...

I took the criticism more to be about the lie. Dishonesty seems par for the course now but he's clearly not as good at it, you need to be far more vague if you're going to make nonsense up on the spot... perhaps he's following the "painting buses" route to distract from the antisemitism narrative?

[diable rouge]

Perhaps. I'm all for exposing politicians of all hues for their lies, they should never become normailsed like they have. Johnson and his henchmen are fibbing on an unprecedented industrial scale yet the right wing press ignores them. This 'dossier' by old school right wing Tory journalist Peter Oborne bucks the propaganda trend... https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

[malumbu]

Not sure if this was picked up, from Five Live reported in the Standard and elsewhere. Sour grapes or the truth (or both):

Donald Trump and Boris Johnson share an ?elastic relationship with the truth?, the former chairman of the Conservative Party has said.

Lord Patten also accused Mr Johnson or his senior adviser Dominic Cummings of turning the Conservative Party into a ?rather narrow sectarian English nationalist party?.

[SpringTime]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps. I'm all for exposing politicians of all

> hues for their lies, they should never become

> normailsed like they have. Johnson and his

> henchmen are fibbing on an unprecedented

> industrial scale yet the right wing press ignores

> them. This 'dossier' by old school right wing Tory

> journalist Peter Oborne bucks the propaganda

> trend... https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Yep. He says anything and makes it up as he goes along. Shan't vote for him, or his slum-landlord Patel, or that sleazebag-Christian-with-tonnes-of-cash-Mogg, even if he is suspiciously quiet at the moment. It's getting tough to choose. Diane Abacus is also largely off the radar at the minute. The woman is dangerously mad as well. I genuinely believe she's a hateful racist. Can you trust her to run the show when JC's on a holiday camp? Or maybe a concentration camp.

I do want to vote though. I voted leave but it's not so important to me so that I'd have to vote Tory. I can't stomach that. For my first time (how exciting!) the LibDems and Green Party are actually on the table.

[pk]

SpringTime Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> Diane Abacus is also

> largely off the radar at the minute. The woman is

> dangerously mad as well. I genuinely believe she's

> a hateful racist

How have you come to that belief?

[JohnL]

SpringTime Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Perhaps. I'm all for exposing politicians of

> all

> > hues for their lies, they should never become

> > normailsed like they have. Johnson and his

> > henchmen are fibbing on an unprecedented

> > industrial scale yet the right wing press

> ignores

> > them. This 'dossier' by old school right wing

> Tory

> > journalist Peter Oborne bucks the propaganda

> > trend... https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

>

> Diane Abacus is also

> largely off the radar at the minute. The woman is

> dangerously mad as well. I genuinely believe she's

> a hateful racist. Can you trust her to run the

> show when JC's on a holiday camp? Or maybe a

> concentration camp.

Her sons been arrested for assaulting a policeman - not her fault what's she supposed to do disown him - we're stuck with our relatives

[SpringTime]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> SpringTime Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > diable rouge Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Perhaps. I'm all for exposing politicians of

> > all

> > > hues for their lies, they should never become

> > > normailsed like they have. Johnson and his

> > > henchmen are fibbing on an unprecedented

> > > industrial scale yet the right wing press

> > ignores

> > > them. This 'dossier' by old school right wing

> > Tory

> > > journalist Peter Oborne bucks the propaganda

> > > trend... https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

> >

> > Diane Abacus is also

> > largely off the radar at the minute. The woman

> is

> > dangerously mad as well. I genuinely believe

> she's

> > a hateful racist. Can you trust her to run the

> > show when JC's on a holiday camp? Or maybe a

> > concentration camp.

>

> Her sons been arrested for assaulting a policeman

> - not her fault what's she supposed to do disown

> him - we're stuck with our relatives

Oh, that's a shame John. He went to a good school according to mummy's wishes, though good schools shouldn't be available to other people...

[cella]

SpringTime Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Perhaps. I'm all for exposing politicians of

> all

> > hues for their lies, they should never become

> > normailsed like they have. Johnson and his

> > henchmen are fibbing on an unprecedented

> > industrial scale yet the right wing press

> ignores

> > them. This 'dossier' by old school right wing

> Tory

> > journalist Peter Oborne bucks the propaganda

> > trend... https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

>

> Yep. He says anything and makes it up as he goes

> along. Shan't vote for him, or his slum-landlord

> Patel, or that

> sleazebag-Christian-with-tonnes-of-cash-Mogg, even

> if he is suspiciously quiet at the moment. It's

> getting tough to choose. Diane Abacus is also

> largely off the radar at the minute. The woman is

> dangerously mad as well. I genuinely believe she's

> a hateful racist. Can you trust her to run the

> show when JC's on a holiday camp? Or maybe a

> concentration camp.

>

> I do want to vote though. I voted leave but it's

> not so important to me so that I'd have to vote

> Tory. I can't stomach that. For my first time (how

> exciting!) the LibDems and Green Party are

> actually on the table.

Good riddance then if it's either of those two choices. Not sure they'd welcome your views/ugly language.

[uncleglen]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What distortions of the truth would they be Uncle?

> Meanwhile, if you really do want to see

> distortions of the truth, I suggest you watch

> Boris Johnson's car crash of an interview with

> Andrew Marr on iplayer. I suggest you also revisit

> the claims made by both sides during the

> referendum campaign ;)

I happened to see a few minutes of the Johnson/Marr Sunday show...Boris was there to talk about the London Bridge killings and Andrew marr asked him how many other terrorists were out after half a sentence- Boris said "74," Marr said "Answer the question"- said it all- again- switched off....they might as well get an automaton on repeatedly saying 'Answer the question' if Marr isn't going to listen to the answer.

I didn't listen to ANY of the claims by either side during the run up to the referendum- I voted leave according to my own observations and experiences since 1973....overwhelmingly in favour of Leave- the EU has asset-stripped the UK wholesale- giving cheap loans out to non-EU countries like Turkey enabling them to take our manufacturing.

People like Heseltine have raked in ?900,000 a year from the CAP.....

And the fishing industry is a third of what it was- WE are a bloody island for crying out loud- remember the Spanish vessels using illegal nets and nearly wiping out our cod stocks? No I bet you don't....you conveniently forget the REAL damage done over the years...in your quest for a cheap extension and looking up how much your property has appreciated in the last 15 years.

[dulwichbloke]

Nothing to see here, move along now...

70 serving and former Labour staff members have now come forward as whistleblowers to the EHRC.

This has just appeared on Sky news:

At a press conference held by JLM and its lawyers on Friday, whistleblower Sam Matthews, who was head of disputes at Labour, said the "intolerable" problem of antisemitism within the party had left him considering taking his own life.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton, a former Labour Justice Secretary, said he has "the gravest concerns" about Mr Corbyn's leadership after the "utterly damning" dossier.

He told The Times: "It's a leadership issue which the leadership should have dealt with.

"I believe it to be utterly damning of the Labour Party. It shows strong evidence of an institutional attempt to sweep under the carpet evidence of antisemitism."

Endorse this by voting Labour by all means, if your conscience is 'flexible' enough and you can also persuade yourself that if a party is capable of this, other groups in society that they dislike would not be next if they got into power.

I'm not Jewish, but I won't be voting Labour again while Momentum/Corbyn and his apologists are in charge.

[pk]

dulwichbloke Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nothing to see here, move along now...

>

> 70 serving and former Labour staff members have

> now come forward as whistleblowers to the EHRC.

>

> This has just appeared on Sky news:

>

> At a press conference held by JLM and its lawyers

> on Friday, whistleblower Sam Matthews, who was

> head of disputes at Labour, said the "intolerable"

> problem of antisemitism within the party had left

> him considering taking his own life.

>

> Lord Falconer of Thoroton, a former Labour Justice

> Secretary, said he has "the gravest concerns"

> about Mr Corbyn's leadership after the "utterly

> damning" dossier.

>

> He told The Times: "It's a leadership issue which

> the leadership should have dealt with.

>

> "I believe it to be utterly damning of the Labour

> Party. It shows strong evidence of an

> institutional attempt to sweep under the carpet

> evidence of antisemitism."

>

> Endorse this by voting Labour by all means, if

> your conscience is 'flexible' enough and you can

> also persuade yourself that if a party is capable

> of this, other groups in society that they dislike

> would not be next if they got into power.

>

> I'm not Jewish, but I won't be voting Labour again

> while Momentum/Corbyn and his apologists are in

> charge.

Have you always put a lot of weight on the views of Sam Matthews and Lord Falconer?

[pk]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I didn't listen to ANY of the claims by either

> side during the run up to the referendum

Sounds about right

[se22cat]

Surely everyone knows we can trust the bun chugging pathological liar about as much as the average ED resident could throw the reptilian ball sucker, but just in case, here's a reminder why not to vote for the cun*

[dulwichbloke]

pk Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> dulwichbloke Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Nothing to see here, move along now...

> >

> > 70 serving and former Labour staff members have

> > now come forward as whistleblowers to the EHRC.

> >

> > This has just appeared on Sky news:

> >

> > At a press conference held by JLM and its

> lawyers

> > on Friday, whistleblower Sam Matthews, who was

> > head of disputes at Labour, said the

> "intolerable"

> > problem of antisemitism within the party had

> left

> > him considering taking his own life.

> >

> > Lord Falconer of Thoroton, a former Labour

> Justice

> > Secretary, said he has "the gravest concerns"

> > about Mr Corbyn's leadership after the "utterly

> > damning" dossier.

> >

> > He told The Times: "It's a leadership issue

> which

> > the leadership should have dealt with.

> >

> > "I believe it to be utterly damning of the

> Labour

> > Party. It shows strong evidence of an

> > institutional attempt to sweep under the carpet

> > evidence of antisemitism."

> >

> > Endorse this by voting Labour by all means, if

> > your conscience is 'flexible' enough and you

> can

> > also persuade yourself that if a party is

> capable

> > of this, other groups in society that they

> dislike

> > would not be next if they got into power.

> >

> > I'm not Jewish, but I won't be voting Labour

> again

> > while Momentum/Corbyn and his apologists are in

> > charge.

>

> Have you always put a lot of weight on the views

> of Sam Matthews and Lord Falconer?

Is there any reason you know of why I shouldn?t? Falconer is a former Labour Justice minister and one of the leading barristers in a generation (I think he is well used to evaluating evidence) and Matthews is the former Head of Investigations for the Labour Party. I have no idea of their religion (if any) - is that something you are referring to, or do you have some insight that I?ve missed.

Oh, and 70 Labour staff (not just members) who are whistleblowers. 70! Are they all making it up too?