Who to vote for?

[fishbiscuits]

Dictatorship and intolerance? LOL!!!

But yeah the reality is that these people are going nowhere... they are paid-up members whose views are in the spirit of the old-school Labour socialist tradition. So their approval is probably going to be pivotal when it comes to appointing the next leader (you can't expect moderates to join up in droves and force the party to change course, the same way that the left did four years ago).

Keir Starmer knows this.. he's being very careful with the language he uses.. trying not to alienate momentum.. still presenting the party as a force for radical change. He knows that in order to achieve anything, he needs these guys on side.

[cella]

Loutwo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> cella Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass

> > roots organisation, apart from some ultra right

> > wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship

> and

> > intolerance surely. There are many good things

> > that have come from Momentum and a new Leader

> has

> > to find a way of blending the different views

> > within the party without allowing one side to

> > dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.

>

>

> Are you being serious? I hope not. Momentum,

> fronted by a private school educated millionaire,

> claiming to work for the common people, has in

> effect taken over control of Labour. If they want

> to fight a election on the same failed Corbyn

> ticket the electorate just emphatically rejected,

> perhaps they could setup their own political

> party? But no, they won?t do that will they,

> because they love being a loud protest movement.

> They have no intention of wanting to gain power to

> change this country. Labour with Momentum is not

> electable, it?s a protest group, this has now been

> proven. Labour under Blair and Brown is what we

> need, or a new version of that, and that cannot be

> done whilst Momentum hold the reigns of power.

>

> Momentum is NOT democracy, it is a dictatorship.

> One which is now damaging this countries

> opportunity for a progressive voice against a hard

> right government.

>

> Louisa.

Disagree.

[cella]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dictatorship and intolerance? LOL!!!

>

> But yeah the reality is that these people are

> going nowhere... they are paid-up members whose

> views are in the spirit of the old-school Labour

> socialist tradition. So their approval is probably

> going to be pivotal when it comes to appointing

> the next leader (you can't expect moderates to

> join up in droves and force the party to change

> course, the same way that the left did four years

> ago).

>

> Keir Starmer knows this.. he's being very careful

> with the language he uses.. trying not to alienate

> momentum.. still presenting the party as a force

> for radical change. He knows that in order to

> achieve anything, he needs these guys on side.

Exactly what's needed if we can't have a new unencumbered face.

[Spartacus]

[Grove boy]

cella Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass

> roots organisation, apart from some ultra right

> wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and

> intolerance surely.

Hahahahaha. What's your views on Labours dictatorship and intolerance ?

[Blah Blah]

What's your view on a party expelling 21 MPs for having a different view to the leader Grove Boy? Ever heard of glass houses and stones?

[fishbiscuits]

cella Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Exactly what's needed if we can't have a new unencumbered face.

Well.. it's pragmatic. In fact it's probably the only solution. Try to keep the majority of members on side, and gradually, gently steer the party back from the brink towards a more mainstream direction...

[Grove boy]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What's your view on a party expelling 21 MPs for

> having a different view to the leader Grove Boy?

> Ever heard of glass houses and stones?

We are talking about labour here, what has that got to do with labours demolition? You can counter claim all day long but it doesn't absolve nor solve labours failings.

[SpringTime]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> cella Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Exactly what's needed if we can't have a new

> unencumbered face.

>

> Well.. it's pragmatic. In fact it's probably the

> only solution. Try to keep the majority of members

> on side, and gradually, gently steer the party

> back from the brink towards a more mainstream

> direction...

Sounds nice and familiar to me, but isn't it the centre that's eventually worn itself out and lost?

[diable rouge]

Grove boy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We are talking about labour here, what has that

> got to do with labours demolition? You can counter

> claim all day long but it doesn't absolve nor

> solve labours failings.

What was that you were saying about counter claims?...

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And WTF does Johnson and all the other

> millionaires in the Tory party know about REAL

> lives? Keep doffing your cap and tugging your

> forelock to your masters...

Grove boy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> About as much as the millionaires behind Corbyn,

> John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.

[Grove boy]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Grove boy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > We are talking about labour here, what has that

> > got to do with labours demolition? You can

> counter

> > claim all day long but it doesn't absolve nor

> > solve labours failings.

>

>

> What was that you were saying about counter

> claims?...

>

>

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > And WTF does Johnson and all the other

> > millionaires in the Tory party know about REAL

> > lives? Keep doffing your cap and tugging your

> > forelock to your masters...

>

>

> Grove boy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > About as much as the millionaires behind

> Corbyn,

> > John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.

That is a fact not a counter claim

[Blah Blah]

And so is Johnson kicking 21 MPs out of his party for disagreeing with him a fact, so drop the counter claim games Grove Boy, before someone calls you a hypocrite ;)

[JohnL]

cella Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass

> roots organisation, apart from some ultra right

> wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and

> intolerance surely. There are many good things

> that have come from Momentum and a new Leader has

> to find a way of blending the different views

> within the party without allowing one side to

> dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.

There is an argument that MP's should elect their leader in the house they are in as used to happen (won't happen now without major change though).

We're moving towards a Presidential system (I heard the line on the BBC "Boris's motorcade was booed" and then the party members get to vote for the presidential candidate whilst the house and senate are voted for by members of each house.

[Seabag]

Boris loves a peerage for his cronies. I guess he?s going to need them for the next few years on the rocky roads to Brexit nirvana.

[dulwichbloke]

Captain Marvel Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You seem slightly out of step with the majority

> celia. Or are we all stupid?

Not just out of step, but also plainly in denial, like so many others in the hard left.

That's what makes it so entertaining at the moment!

[Grove boy]

Indeed it is, but we/they won the arguement,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[dulwichbloke]

Ha Ha! Yes! In their own minds, or their echo chamber, at least.

[Grove boy]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And so is Johnson kicking 21 MPs out of his party

> for disagreeing with him a fact, so drop the

> counter claim games Grove Boy, before someone

> calls you a hypocrite ;)

That would be a shock, a corbyn cultist name calling. That's all his crowd of middle class brats have done, point the finger,deflect any criticism onto the tories and scream racist at people, look where it got you. The tories had a plan whilst labour pointed out how naughty they thought the tories were, you are doing it now. The tories done it first argument is weak and it doesn't mean it was okay for labour to follow suit, student id politics at it's worst. God help anyone that disagree's with saint Corbyn and his cronies.

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18112219.labour-mp-lloyd-russell-moyle-calls-anti-corbyn-colleagues-c-ts/

[JohnL]

New law meaning those implementing disruption by a foreign power can be jailed incoming.

Attempt to arrest remainers as being agents of the EU or genuine attempt to get Russian agents ?

[fishbiscuits]

SpringTime Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> fishbiscuits Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> >

> > Well.. it's pragmatic. In fact it's probably the

> > only solution. Try to keep the majority of members

> > on side, and gradually, gently steer the party

> > back from the brink towards a more mainstream

> > direction...

>

> Sounds nice and familiar to me, but isn't it the

> centre that's eventually worn itself out and lost?

I think you misunderstand. Starmer is not going to run as a centrist... more as a unifying force between the left fringes and the centre-left.

Recent events have also had me wondering whether there's even a place for liberal centrism in modern British politics, but I think there still is... unfortunately we don't tend to shout as loud as the nationalist right or the dogmatic left, and the FPTP two party system tends to leave us out in the cold. Labour have turned their back on centrism, and the lib dems have been tragically short of new ideas or inspirational leadership. But maybe our day will come...

[diable rouge]

Grove boy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That would be a shock, a corbyn cultist name

> calling. That's all his crowd of middle class

> brats have done

Not only a hypocrite but a total lack of self-awareness...:)

[uncleglen]

Loutwo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Momentum should be removed from controlling the

> Labour movement with immediate effect. They?ve not

> just damaged the Labour Party, they?ve damaged our

> democracy, they?ve hijacked it for their own ends

> and have facilitated a hard right government for

> the next five/ten years minimum. It?s a shocking

> and deluded power grab which needs to come to an

> end. Corbyn was used as a figurehead radical for

> momentum?s own ends.

>

> Louisa.

The Momentum presence is like the Militant Tendency-Derek Hatton etc presence in the 1980s when they were uncovered in the Labour party...and you all know what happened there- (not that I feel the same way about Mrs T as you all do obviously!)

The people do not like it...

And it's about time that people realised at the ballot box that Labour have shown nothing but contempt for the concerns of people in its heartlands since Gordon Brown and his 'bigoted woman' comment in 2010. It's just unfortunate that the Brexit Party deprived the Tories of the seats of Ed Milliband and Yvette Cooper and more.

[Blah Blah]

Grove boy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > And so is Johnson kicking 21 MPs out of his

> party

> > for disagreeing with him a fact, so drop the

> > counter claim games Grove Boy, before someone

> > calls you a hypocrite ;)

>

>

> That would be a shock, a corbyn cultist name

> calling. That's all his crowd of middle class

> brats have done, point the finger,deflect any

> criticism onto the tories and scream racist at

> people, look where it got you. The tories had a

> plan whilst labour pointed out how naughty they

> thought the tories were, you are doing it now. The

> tories done it first argument is weak and it

> doesn't mean it was okay for labour to follow

> suit, student id politics at it's worst. God help

> anyone that disagree's with saint Corbyn and his

> cronies.

>

>

> https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18112219.labour-mp

> -lloyd-russell-moyle-calls-anti-corbyn-colleagues-

> c-ts/

I am no Corbynista as a simple search of my posting history on this forum can confirm. So go and educate yourself and come back when you know what you are talking about.

The only person name calling is YOU btw. Pointing out a fact is not name calling. It is a FACT that Boris Johnson expelled 21 MPs simply for defying the whip. Stop being a hypocrite and acknowledge the significance of that. And stop assuming everyone that calls out your hypocrisy is a Corbynite too. You just make yourself look very stupid otherwise. You can ditch the inverse snobbery too while you are at it.

[Captain Marvel]

Were you a prison guard at any time?

[SpringTime]