Who to vote for?

[Spartacus]

If people don't like other people's views / beliefs then the simple solution is to stop reading this thread and to stop posting on it

However if you want to engage in conversation with people who don't hold the same ideals as yourself then carry on

It's really quite simple like that. At this stage in the game I suspect people posting on here have already made up their minds which way to vote Thursday so this thread is just throwing stones at each other to get a reaction rather than a straight forward debate to try and convince people to change their views and thinking.

[Seabag]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If people don't like other people's views /

> beliefs then the simple solution is to stop

> reading this thread and to stop posting on it

>

> However if you want to engage in conversation with

> people who don't hold the same ideals as yourself

> then carry on

And you see no contradiction in these two statements of yours?

[Jules-and-Boo]

There are so many factors, it's difficult to be balanced.

Yes, immigration has undoubtedly out a strain on infrastructure - however there is a contribution from tax these people pay. The NHS does not recover as much as it could to cover additional costs of short term visitors, but other facts - including increased costs are making the NHS unstable.

Accusing someone of being racist for stating fact is hardly helping. It would be better to point out the gaps in their arguments (eg that many migrants work and contribute).

Investment is required for public services - schools, police, roads, NHS.

Where will this money come from? If you increase tax on the rich, they will be incentivised to leave. If that happens, there is less money, so something a little more clever is required.

What about ensuring companies pay the tax they should, or that foreign investors into housing have to contribute (it's a great deal for them with weak pound etc - which actually increases prices of the stock), or better yet, we invest in growth, property, development...

Whether you like Boris or Jeremy, you have to think further ahead - and take other people's views into account - you may develop a wider understanding.

[JohnL]

?You?ve refused to look at the photo, you?ve taken my phone and put it in your pocket, Prime Minister.

The first statement to hit home this election and made worse by an attempted "dead cat" by Tory High Command later in the day when Matt Hancock visited Leeds Royal Infirmary and one of his staff pretended to have been punched (a video showed him walking into someones arm).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/refuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

[Rockets]

I think the one thing that everyone can agree on is that this country's infrastructure needs support and investment and, when you look at what all the parties are suggesting for the NHS there isn't a huge amount of difference between them - just the way they get there.

The picture of the boy on the floor in the hospital is shocking but, for anyone who has used the NHS in the last 30 years, not at all surprising - we have all had to wait hours and hours and that has been the case for decades.

Boris' reaction was awful and wrong but any politician being grandstanded like that by a journalist will have been caught off guard. The timing of the story was not a coincidence. Corbyn needed something else to hit Boris regarding the NHS as the NHS for sale mantra wasn't working or gaining sufficient traction. Also he needed to move the narrative away from that given the suggestion is that the leaked dossiers came from the Russians and Corbyn could not be seen anywhere near that.

Once you scratch beneath the surface you realise the picture was being manipulated by the media and politicians. Corbyn first stood up and showed the image at a rally of supporters and said the boy had pneumonia - he didn't he had flu. That set the train in motion - social media lit up with people, quite rightly asking why a boy with pneumonia was on a hospital floor. It later transpires that the boy had been assessed, moved into a bed for observation and then had to be moved out of that bed because a child in need of more urgent attention needed the bed. Suddenly the narrative has changed and it isn't all it appears to be (shocking still) and there are a hundred factors contributing to the situation. The parents are now asking (after sending the pictures to the Mirror) that their son not become a political football but Corbyn made him a political football by knowingly making him the No.1 talking point for the day.

Then later when the Labour activists shouted abuse at a Tory a report went out that one of the them had hit an advisor - which was absolute nonsense but, once again the damage had already been done as the story was out there. (I actually think the best reaction in that video is of the old couple standing watching Hancock being heckled and then quite wonderfully say to the man on the bike - will you shut up now please!).

Both parties lie. Both parties use the media to manipulate the narrative. Both parties fake videos - the FT has asked Corbyn to pull down a video that the FT did on free broadband as Labour have massively edited it to meet their own ends to mislead. They are both as bad as each other.

All anyone can do is scratch beneath the surface to find out what really is happening and what can, and can't be done, by their chosen party.

The good news is that it will all be over on Friday...I think we are all sick and tired of it now!

[JohnL]

yep - the worst GE campaign (probably not but doesn't feel right this time of year).

Still expect a Tory majority but a hung parliament not out of the question. Cannot see a Labour majority.

[Jules-and-Boo]

If we get a Hung Parliament, expect stalemate and nothing but continuation of recent years. Worst case scenario?

If Boris wins, we've got Brexit at end of Jan (6 weeks?) so that will be fun. Corbyn will have to step down and Labour re-evaluate...could be interesting. And deals with US re NHS supplies (don't believe the lies that this won't happen)

If Labour wins expect higher spend/ investment = higher taxes and a promise to the end of austerity. As well as a second referendum and renationalisation of services.

[fishbiscuits]

cella Wrote:

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> John McD is a skilled politician who is credible.

> He's spent 2 years going round all the financial

> institutions and has garnered a lot of support.

I agree that he's a skilled politician - and like most skilled politicians, he's concealing the truth about the funding needed for their proposals. Hundreds of billions of borrowing... how is it going to be repaid? Can the railways, utilities, etc return enough profit to repay the debt - even after the promised reinvestments, price/fare freezes, and giveaways? We've not been given this info... and for good reason... it wouldn't add up.

Who are these financial institutions that support him? (not talking about left-leaning academics). Actually I have heard elsewhere that he has privately been courting The City, but I see no real evidence of much success. The financial transaction tax is bound to be a popular policy among the masses, but I would suggest that not many people really understand the impact this would have to the industry (already seriously destabilized by Brexit).

But there are bits of Labour's manifesto that I really like... 50% tax, green energy spending, raising NHS and mental health budget, sensible immigration reform with a positive attitude and intent... all these things could potentially make me want to vote for them... but the problem is, they'd be easily reversible as soon as the next Tory government get in. If we are honest, they are temporary. While the bits I don't like - spunking billions away on a socialist ideology - are not easily reversible.

[Rockets]

They all look pretty bleak to me but I agree a hung parliament will mean more of the same for years to come and we'll be doing it all again very soon and probably not actually getting anywhere.

[Rockets]

Oh my....Ashworth...deary, deary me....that tape is pretty damning....he is royally shafting Corbyn and the Tories will be focusing on his own shadow cabinet member admitting he is a security risk! I do feel sorry for him as he has been done like a kipper on that one (no-one who has listened to the tape will think he is "joshing" and its "banter") but this is the big problem Labour has - a lot of their own leadership team (the ones who haven't been run out of the party by Momentum) are as scared of Corbyn as many of the public are.

[Jules-and-Boo]

and that poses the biggest risk to the whole country, as it actually makes Boris look less dangerous than he is

[DulwichFox]

I have had not a single person Canvassing on behalf of ANY Party. Not one.

I am at home all day and unlikely I have missed anyone.

So I say 'Stuff the lot of them'

Complacent Labour think they are high and dry.

Well. with Corbyn at the helm they need to take a good look at themselves.

I will not be Voting Labour.

DulwichFox Former paid up member of the Labour Party and lifetime supporter.

[stepdown]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Labour think they are high and dry.

Well, that's because they are:

https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/helen-hayes/4510/election-results

[JohnL]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh my....Ashworth...deary, deary me....that tape

> is pretty damning....he is royally shafting Corbyn

> and the Tories will be focusing on his own shadow

> cabinet member admitting he is a security risk! I

> do feel sorry for him as he has been done like a

> kipper on that one (no-one who has listened to the

> tape will think he is "joshing" and its "banter")

> but this is the big problem Labour has - a lot of

> their own leadership team (the ones who haven't

> been run out of the party by Momentum) are as

> scared of Corbyn as many of the public are.

I don't think he's shafting Corbyn - I've been saying for the past 3 weeks that a hung parliament is the best Labour and Remain can do (although as has been said it prolongs things) - there is no point in fear of a Corbyn majority as it won't happen.

[paulu197]

I think this will be known as the election Labour lost. If they had elected a centre left, it would have galvanised the troops, protected the heartland. Instead they are leaving the heartland. Also interesting to note that whilst all the opposition parties have different policies they are united behind getting Boris out and what this is creating is that all people are hearing is Boris Boris Boris and if you are a swinging vote, one might think why are they so paranoid about Boris. No one is focusing on the problems and offering tangible solutions. The familiar drum beat of more nurses and teachers is a comfort zone. Think about the problem, why do we have less teachers and nurses...is it because those careers aren't appealing - is it a pay or workload reason? How does one seriously increase the number of nurses and teachers? Has anyone asked that question

[Loutwo]

My vote for Labour hangs by a very fine thread, and I?m sure I?m not alone on this. It feels like the best of two terrible options. I am definitely more aligned to the brexit northern Labour heartlands than I am this metropolitan brand of Corbyn socialism. I feel genuinely trapped and forced into voting for something I know will probably never happen, and ultimately that?s because the best we can hope for is a return to the status quo, and hung parliament territory. And yes, god forbid, more Brexit Brexit Brexit ad nauseum.

Louisa.

[Sue]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have had not a single person Canvassing on

> behalf of ANY Party. Not one.

>

> I am at home all day and unlikely I have missed

> anyone.

>

> So I say 'Stuff the lot of them'

>

> Complacent Labour think they are high and dry.

> Well. with Corbyn at the helm they need to take a

> good look at themselves.

> I will not be Voting Labour.

>

> DulwichFox Former paid up member of the Labour

> Party and lifetime supporter

Helen Hayes is an absolutely excellent and committed local constituency MP.

She and local Labour party members have been canvassing in marginal London constituencies where every Labour vote is crucial to get the Tories out.

Surely that is time better spent than canvassing round here which is a safe Labour seat?

And even if it wasn't, I don't see how they could possibly get round every single door.

Three local Labour Party members were at a stall outside the Co-op on Saturday talking to passers by about the election and the Labour Party manifesto. It was the day of the Christmas Cracker. East Dulwich was rammed. You can hardly accuse them of keeping a low profile.

You say you are a paid up member of the Labour Party. I have never seen you at any local meetings or social events or volunteering to deliver leaflets or help out in other ways.

Why do you belong to a party you say you are a lifelong supporter of, but you are not going to vote for it because they haven't made coming to your door the top priority of their campaign?

Absolutely ridiculous.

And if you hate Corbyn so much, which from previous posts of yours on here appears to be because you have been reading a load of bollocks about him, presumably in the right wing press or on right wing social media posts, why aren't you active in the Labour Party to get another leader elected?

Or do you just prefer to moan on here?

ETA: Apologies I see you say you are a former member. But nevertheless you say you are a lifetime supporter, so much of the above still stands.

[DulwichFox]

I voted to Leave The E.U.

I supported Helen Hayes until I received a letter from her stating she is

opposed to Brexit and will campaign to reverse it. So I cannot vote for her.

A vote For Labour is a vote for Corbyn, A man that has openly stood side by side with several

members of various terrorist organisations globally.

The Labour Party cabinet have failed to get rid of Corbyn. Mostly because they are Terrified of him.

Anyone that opposes him would get ousted.

This could well be the end of the Labour Party. Tony Blair put the first nail in the coffin.

Corbyn will finish the job,

[Seabag]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I voted to Leave The E.U.

>

> I supported Helen Hayes until I received a

> letter from her stating she is

> opposed to Brexit and will campaign to reverse

> it. So I cannot vote for her.

>

> A vote For Labour is a vote for Corbyn, A man

> that has openly stood side by side with several

> members of various terrorist organisations

> globally.

>

> The Labour Party cabinet have failed to get rid

> of Corbyn. Mostly because they are Terrified of

> him.

> Anyone that opposes him would get ousted.

>

> This could well be the end of the Labour Party.

> Tony Blair put the first nail in the coffin.

> Corbyn will finish the job,

Soooooooo, what you voting then FXTR?

Boris?

Other?

[Seabag]

I want a hung parliament

So I?m voting for that

[Loutwo]

What I find interesting is how despite all the evidence offered by the Jewish community, including Labour members of Parliament, so called paid up members fail to call out anti-semitism within the party.

The right wing press have a field day out of Corbyn because his hardline opinions are entrenched, and unfortunately those anti-capitalist and Marxist connotations, whilst not overly anti-Jewish per se, have a heavy undertone of undeniable bias against the Jewish community. It?s not just worrying because many labour members deny it, it?s worry that they turn a blind eye to it. My vote for Labour this time hangs by a thread, and it would NOT have hurt Corbyn to apologise in his various interviews. This is a open goal for the tories in Northern Labour heartlands.

Louisa.

[cella]

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There are so many factors, it's difficult to be

> balanced.

>

> Yes, immigration has undoubtedly out a strain on

> infrastructure - however there is a contribution

> from tax these people pay. The NHS does not

> recover as much as it could to cover additional

> costs of short term visitors, but other facts -

> including increased costs are making the NHS

> unstable.

>

> Accusing someone of being racist for stating fact

> is hardly helping. It would be better to point out

> the gaps in their arguments (eg that many migrants

> work and contribute).

>

> Investment is required for public services -

> schools, police, roads, NHS.

> Where will this money come from? If you increase

> tax on the rich, they will be incentivised to

> leave. If that happens, there is less money, so

> something a little more clever is required.

>

> What about ensuring companies pay the tax they

> should, or that foreign investors into housing

> have to contribute (it's a great deal for them

> with weak pound etc - which actually increases

> prices of the stock), or better yet, we invest in

> growth, property, development...

>

> Whether you like Boris or Jeremy, you have to

> think further ahead - and take other people's

> views into account - you may develop a wider

> understanding.

An opinion is not necessarily fact. Uncleglen regularly posts his unpleasant and openly racist views on here and people quite rightly take him to task on these. That's what I was referring to as I refuse to be associated with them/him.

[Blah Blah]

Uncleglen is straight out of the Tommy Robinson playbook. He just pops up here and there to spout the same nonsense, never sticking around to actually engage in any challenge to his unfounded and factually incorrect views.

[Seabag]

On a lighter note, hands down, this little vid of JC was better than BJ?s clumsy ?Love actually? parody, where half way through I got to thinking ?come on you sausage fingered tw@t, get on with it?.

Maybe that was the point tho!?

https://apple.news/AJK3rSyVwTxO6FnN4Ph7R8w

[SpringTime]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?You?ve refused to look at the photo, you?ve taken

> my phone and put it in your pocket, Prime

> Minister.

>

> The first statement to hit home this election and

> made worse by an attempted "dead cat" by Tory High

> Command later in the day when Matt Hancock visited

> Leeds Royal Infirmary and one of his staff

> pretended to have been punched (a video showed him

> walking into someones arm).

>

>

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/r

> efuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-o

> n-hospital-floor

I've just watched this with the sound off. Is he mad?