Council to destroy wood in East Dulwich

[henryb]

> Getting transfixed

> by the fate of a few acres of land is missing the

> point. We live in a city, not the countryside.

> People come first.

Green space in cities is about people. It is well documented that green space in cities and towns both natural and maintained improves the quality of life in many ways.

> It will be interesting to see how many mature,

> healthy, indigenous trees are to be brought down,

> rather than the apocalyptic picture that the

> whippers up of public moral outrage paint.

So how many mature trees were brought down when the old nursery site and the area down to the railway was cleared in Camberwell New Cemetery last year? Was that even documented?

[Michael Palaeologus]

Yes. We have many, many green spaces in our urban environment. These are purpose built and protected as such.

Thus, feral land which as you describe is "in Camberwell New Cemetary" is available for relevant development because it is in a cemetary - a man made construct that is not the natural environment.

That such an environment has trees and wildlife is a secondary usage and benefit to burying dead people. The primary usage is burying people, whether that is in the past, present or future is irrelevant.

[henryb]

The land was allocated by Victorians for burials because it was outside London. That is no longer case and so that justification is no longer valid. These decisions should be based on the situation now not 100 years ago.

Now those areas are part of the few natural green spaces left in London and in that regard I think they are worth protecting. Southwark should be dong what other councils are doing and protecting green space in London and acquiring land outside London or burials. This will have to be done some point in the future anyway.

[mynamehere]

I think this point in history will be viewed in hindsight as one of missed opportunity. The massive building and regeneration with good intention but without insightful new ideas or orientation or working new smart technologies. The new sewers without meters or water separation or anything not even better than the Romans.

Why not plant trees when people die instead of putting stone markers? Put a beautiful memorial on the tree. Put a bench someplace you like to walk. Donate a climbing frame to a school and so forth. Nunhead piles old gravestones. The idea to bury stone under a metre of earth and put down more stone. Yawn. Plant an orchard. And then harvest it. And then have a bake sale. And all the while dream and think about the continuity of time and the people who floated through.

[Sunshinecat]

My family for several generations are buried here, whether or not you agree with burial these plots have been paid for and bodies buried. WW1 heros, WW2 heros and more current war veterans. A playing field will be trashed in no time.

[mynamehere]

Just to say for the record: All and any comments I make are "going forward" which is my understanding of the discussion. This means what is, is. The one in no way impacts the other. My interest in planning and decision making is based on new ideas/ synthesis of ideas/ technology/ quality and so forth. Lucky you that you have so many people in one place. My idea is how to continue to use the space more beautifully/ creatively and multi-task at the same time: new comers could have their names on trees that shade/ pollinate/ bear fruit. Or you could sit and visit on benches with other stories and so forth. I just wonder out loud why I am constantly hearing (for example) what Queen Victoria might have to say about whether I put solar on my roof. The lady would probably loudly say: (I) lived in a different world. You need to be much more creative and insightfull about living in your century and how your decisions impact and possibly limit the future.

[monica]

I have just moved to the Woodvale area, and I find the energy of the whole area so peaceful and warming. The cemetery and the woods around the cemetery adds to the whole energy of Woodvale. I personally think we should have a symbolic place to think of our loved ones who have passed over. We do however need trees and more open green spaces. The population of Forest hill/East Dulwich seems to be increasing, and with this the need for open spaces is increasing.

Renata comes across very conscientious in her approach on this matter, and I look forward to seeing what the outcome is.

Good luck Renata

[Renata Hamvas]

Thanks Monika!

I haven't posted back on here as I wanted to discuss the issue further with council officers. This is what I have been told:

An environmental impact assessment was carried out. The reuse of other areas of the cemeteries will be of a similar genre of that being carried out on Wood Vale, ie tree surveys, good specimens kept, particular emphasis on native trees. Where it is found to be necessary to remove trees down, this will be ofset by new planting. Each stage will go via planning too, so there will be the oppertunity for residents to make their opinions known at each stage. Yes there will be an impact on each area as they are redeveloped for burial, but the nature of the type of vegetation in the cemeteries will mean that this will be short term.

At the forefront of everyones thoughts, that yes the Cemeteries are a great place to walk your dog, or pick blackberries, but they are there as the deceased relatives of Southwark's residents are buried there and a proportion of Southwark's residents for personal or religious reasons are still opting for burial over cremation and I think this wish should be respected by posters on this thread, whatever their personal opinions on this matter.

Renata

Renata

[edborders]

Renata, you are a very hardworking councillor and I am very fond of you, personally. I think we need to think about the needs of Nunhead and East Dulwich people.

These are the Sad Facts:

The beautiful Camberwell Old Cemetery Wood will be lost and a wasteland of dead graves put in its place - and those graves are just a short term solution.

You cannot say the Council cares about families when the Council is proposing digging up the old graves of other families.

"Re-using" graves is a polite way of saying deforestation. It isn't enough to save the trees. The bushes and brambles and wildflowers are what make a wood. This is true for all three cemeteries.

The woods are a gift to the people of London, and to Nunhead and East Dulwich and Forest Hills. Are we going to preserve them for future generations?

Here is a post I wrote showing views of the beautiful woods: Photos of what we'll lose.

http://lewisschaffer.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/save-our-woods/

here is my original post

http://lewisschaffer.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/cutting-down-the-new-forest/

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> they [The Cemeteries] are there as

> the deceased relatives of Southwark's residents

> are buried there and a proportion of Southwark's

> residents for personal or religious reasons are

> still opting for burial over cremation and I think

> this wish should be respected by posters on this

> thread, whatever their personal opinions on this

> matter.

[Fromtheteys]

Renata - please could you advise who to contact to ask them to cut the bottom meadow in the Camberwell Old Cemetery so we can use it (again) until it needs to be developed. (And cutting back some nettles on the paths would be fab) I know the weather has played havoc with the grass cutting, but it hasn't been cut since Easter and last year it was done far more often than that. Thank you!

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Fromtheteys,

do you mean the meadow area that is behind Ryedale?

I have assumed you do (please correct me if I'm wrong!) I have just contacted the person in charge of the cemeteries and asked for it to be cut,

Renata

[edborders]

Fromtheteys Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Renata - please could you advise who to contact to

> ask them to cut the bottom meadow in the

> Camberwell Old Cemetery so we can use it (again)

> until it needs to be developed.

I am a bit confused. Isn't this like a condemned man asking for a haircut before he faces the gallows?

The meadow will be lost, as will the trees, the bushes and bee forage and the wonderful wildness of it. Or was I missing some good English irony on the part of fromthekeys?

[ryedalema]

We've so many reasons for arguing against the land being used (of course we would, we back onto it). But as I understand it, during the last consultation, plans for the part behind Ryedale to be cleared for use were shelved until 2029.

So - no digging, preparing the land, etc until then (altho' I'm not sure whether that includes them cutting the grass to make it passable).

I wasn't at the meeting so am hearing this third hand - is this correct or chinese whispers?

[henryb]

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

> This is what I have been told:

> An environmental impact assessment was carried

> out.

Hello Renata,

Thanks for all the information you are posting about this. I appreciate this is a sensitive and difficult matter with conflicting interests but I am sure everyone is motivated by wanting to keep these places special. Would you be able to post a link to the environmental impact assessment? I would be very interested to read it.

[gmm]

A few weeks ago on a beautiful sunny weekend afternoon, by chance I drove through the gate of Camberwell Old Cemetery and, wishing to spend a little more time out with my daughter, parked in the middle (considerately I hope) behind a maintenance shed. We ambled into what I can only describe as a 'secret garden' of gothic splendour combined with pathos... I cannot remember ever being anywhere like it. Notices at the top of the overgrown walkway we followed warned not to stray from the path into the dense woodland as the graves there had become unstable. Not knowing what to expect, I was astonished to see hundreds, perhaps thousands of headstones, both grand and modest, some surviving well, some crumbling, not just flanking the broad grassy path but stretching as far as one could see way back through the trees. Obviously neglected for many years as the trees had grown around and through the graves, they held an almost unendurable poignancy - but strangely, they did not seem that old, few dating from before 1900; my own grandmother was born in the 1890s during the reign of Queen Victoria.

The only other visitor we encountered during our two-hour visit was a young man from Afghanistan who had lost his whole family in his homeland. I found myself struggling to answer his questions about how British families could have allowed their family graves to become so neglected. He asked me why we had so little respect for our forebears.

As we left, passing the newer graves that were around the central hard-standing area and beside the road, I thought how much more peaceful the sites within the wooded area seemed to be... we had found one recent grave in a cleared thicket there, that of a military man. Somehow these older areas have a dignity that the cleared spaces do not offer - although obviously it is more practical to offer easier access to relatives and friends, pushing my young daughter's wheelchair along the overgrown walkways had not caused problems. We were able to reflect upon our own family members and friends who have died - any cemetery can offer this feeling of closeness and continuity but somehow, this part of Camberwell Old Cemetery seemed particularly moving. Certainly, from what he said, our Afghan acquaintance was finding healing and peace from just being there, far away from the violence that had taken his own family from him.

We shall visit again - this was a precious afternoon. If anything can be done to preserve the wooded heart of this cemetery, the damage from trees to graves already done, it would be wonderful in my view. The tranquillity and opportunity to enjoy the atmosphere there must be precious to new mourners whose relatives are buried nearby.

[TillieTrotter]

What a beautifully written review gmm, it's certainly made me want to pay a visit.

[owlwise]

Yes, brilliantly written and I loved reading it. Will also be paying a visit soon.

[edborders]

Felt sad when I read it. Wished I had written it when I first posted it. " If anything can be done to preserve the wooded heart of this cemetery, the damage from trees to graves already done, it would be wonderful in my view. The tranquillity and opportunity to enjoy the atmosphere there must be precious to new mourners whose relatives are buried nearby."

[gmm]

Coincidentally, last week I went to a funeral in the old Brompton Cemetery (one of the "Magnificent Seven" commercial cemeteries opened between 1832 and 1841 around the edge of London after England's victory in the Battle of Waterloo caused the city to boom and its population more than double in 50 years, causing problems to its infrastructure - there was no enough space in the old churchyards and diseases spread. Camberwell Old Cemetery opened in 1856 and was one of the second wave of new London cemeteries.

To me, Brompton seems more densely 'populated': there is mention of 35,000 monuments and 205,000 burials over 39 acres. Yet from what I have read, Camberwell Old Cemetery up to 1984 had 300,000 interments over 30 acres (I have found no mention of how many headstones/monuments).

Brompton Cemetery, too, harbours an atmosphere of dignified, rather beautiful neglect but very different in nature from Camberwell. One of the Brompton's USPs is that no grave has ever been recycled; certainly most people buried there seem to be hemmed in by neighbours on all sides! We had no time to explore, just to walk through on our way from chapel to graveside, but it seemed more 'metropolitan' than Old Camberwell with many mausolea, now overlooked by a football stadium and the peace disturbed by a railway line. Even so, because of its position, the great and the good are interred there still (it's looked after by The Royal Parks and is the only 'Crown Cemetery') - although what will be done after the 100 vacant burial plots are filled, who knows? There are thousands of empty original catacomb places, less costly than ground burial plots but unpopular.. only 500 were ever sold.

It's only by comparing what we have locally with other Victorian London cemeteries that we shall come to treasure the quality of the undisturbed peace of our forested cemetery in Camberwell.