Council to destroy wood in East Dulwich

[kiera]

James Barber - I could not open the pdf you posted yesterday - could you possibly try posting it again please.

[northlondoner]

Otta Wrote:

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> Burials in inner city areas are just a stupid

> idea. Who gets buried these days anyway?

Yeah....families exercising choice over what to do with a deceased loved one. Ridiculous idea .

[Mau]

I think some of the confusion on this matter has arisen from two different interpretations of the phrase ?reuse old graves'.

Most of the people I have spoken to believe this to mean the reuse of ground that is obviously the site of previous burials (complete with gravestones and monuments).

To the council this means the use of any area which has documented evidence of historic burials regardless of its current appearance/usage, whether this be woodland, meadow or recreation area, even if there have not been any obvious signs of burial for over 50 years.

[Renata Hamvas]

Just to update, Honor Oak Rec is to be discussed as part of "Parks and Open Spaces" discussions which are opening soon. Local Residents, Cllr Victoria Mills and I all spoke at the Cabinet meeting on which included burial and cemeteries. The meadow area has been moved back in the schedule and further discussions about it will come back to Cabinet in two years time once further studies have been done on other areas of the cemetery.The immediate area being used for burials is the land that was dumped on and contaminated (now cleared) in Camberwell New Cemetery.

Renata

[edborders]

Thank you, Renata. I think you're one of the most conscientious and hardest working people I know.

What can we do to protect the Camberwell Old Cemetery Wood in perpetuity? It is still at risk. It would be a shame to lose it just because people were once buried underneath it. And what can we do to protect all wood and meadowland in the cemeteries?

What can we do to reduce the number of burials?

[DJKillaQueen]

Increasing population vs available land for burial has been a recurring issue for most capital cities and I guess the cost of maintaining cemetaries has to be met from somewhere and therefore recycling of use is the way that is done. Seems to me that reducing the number of burials is the way to go.

[Honoroaky]

Hi there

For anybody interested in Camberwell Old Cemetery and its future development, I have just posted about an open morning being organised by the new 'Friends of Camberwell Old Cemetery' Group this saturday 30 June at 10am.

Please see my other post here:

Open Morning at Camberwell Old Cemetery, 10am, Saturday 30 June 2012

Honoroaky

[henryb]

Here are some relevant strategy documents

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/downloads/file/7216/cemetery_strategy

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/downloads/file/7215/cemetery_strategy_appendicies

In Camberwell New Cemetery a huge area of woodland and haven for wildlife was lost when they cleared the old nursery site and started the expansion down the bank to the railway. If you look at the strategy document the council have plans clear the woodland on the cemetery side of One Tree Hill and in other places. Even Nunhead Cemetery isn?t safe.

Rare green spaces in the city are not safe until the council stop their unsustainable, environmental damaging policy of clearing woodland and parks to make way for gravestones.

Of course people should have the right to bury thier loved how want, however that doesn?t mean they have the right to do it in a way that substantially reduces the quality of life of others or that is environmental damaging.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Henryb, all the planned areas for doing burials are all within the cemeteries. There are no plans to use parks! There is a parks/open spaces analysis due to start soon (I currently don't know the exact date) but I do know that Honor Oak Rec will be included in this. I don't know when the old Nursery site was cleared, but I do know that there had been waste dumped there, and the area has had to be decontaminated (now completed). This area will now be used for burials. Around 30% of Southwark's deceased residents are buried and 70% cremated. This has been stable for several years. This strategy document is that, a strategy document. The strategy is to reuse burial sites within the cemeteries. What has happened with the site proximate to Wood Vale is that a tree survey was done and many of the trees are remaining. Some are being removed, but this is due to the heath (eg diseased or weak root structure) or type of tree (eg fast growing self seeding variety such as sycamore). There will be more trees in this area in the end than at present. It is hard, pretty much impossible for me to know exactly what the council will be doing in 20 years time, however I hope a similar conservative attitude will prevail with regard to trees etc.

Everything assumes a similar rate of burial. It is possible that burials become less popular. A couple of points that that are important for this, is that other nearby boroughs need to address their burial space shortfalls and also people need to be discouraged from using American- style caskets that do not fit into standard burial plots.

It is very hard to find a good solution to this!

Renata

Renata

[henryb]

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

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> Hi Henryb, all the planned areas for doing burials

> are all within the cemeteries. There are no plans

> to use parks!

Using the Rec not in the current short term plans but it is clearly stated as part of the long term options in the strategy document. As is re-using Nunhead cemetery.

Over the years Victorian cemeteries have become important areas of natural green space and wildlife in the city and are regularly used for recreation as well a burials.

The reason why these areas were originally allocated as cemeteries was that they were on the edge of the city. That is no longer the case. You cannot use Victorian land allocations as a justification for clearing natural green areas in the city.

> I don't know when the old Nursery site was cleared,

Was there an environmental impact assessment report done? For any of the proposed clearings?

> It is very hard to find a good solution to this!

Why not do what the Victorians did and allocate land outside of London for burials?

[Marmora Man]

For those obsessed by the partial loss a small copse of nondescript trees, then reading this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096 may bring a sense of proportion.

[henryb]

I don't see how that article is relevant. If the council were planning on replacing some arable fields outside of London with a new cemetery - I don't think anyone would have problems with that.

It is well documented that accessible green spaces both natural and maintained are very important to the quality life in cities.

http://www.green-space.org.uk/downloads/articles/Urban%20green%20space%20and%20mental%20health.pdf

?The scientific work reported here provides clear evidence that among many sectors of society there are positive benefits for mental health and well-being to be gained from both active and passive involvement with natural areas in towns and cities. Regular access to restorative, natural environments can halt or slow processes that negatively affect mental and physical health. Walking in natural areas provides opportunities for social interaction that are particularly beneficial for the elderly. Exposure to natural scenes reduces stress. Trees play an important social role in easing tensions and improving psychological health. People feel better living around trees. Houses surrounded by nature help to raise children?s attention capabilities. Thus living in areas with trees helps to reduce anger and violence and improve the ability to concentrate and work effectively.?

[Marmora Man]

henryb, my point is that if less than 3% of the UK is built upon this means the vast majority of the country is NOT built upon. In ED and it's immediate surroundings there are vast swathes of green spaces and trees. Within 200 yards of Old Camberwell Cemetry we have Peckham Rye, Brenchley Gardens and One Tree Hill.

I think your campaign is unnecessary - the loss of a few trees will have very little impact, particularly as many will in any case be replaced.

[henryb]

Less than 7% of land in England is woodland compared to an average of 40% across Europe. Less than 2% is ancient woodland. But regardless this is about green space in London.

An area of woodland on one tree hill is on the plans to go.

[mynamehere]

I agree with you Henry. The conversation is not: How little can we live with. That's like the conversation about Battery Hens: how little do they need to produce eggs. The conversation is about how we want to live.

[edborders]

There are plans afoot to destroy wild and green places in all three of our cemeteries.

[The photo is what the Council did to a wild bit in Camberwell New Cemetery.]

Who is going to speak up for East Dulwich, Dulwich and Nunhead and stop this?

The original post: "Will we regret cutting down the new forests of Southwark?" Click below.

http://lewisschaffer.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/cutting-down-the-new-forest/

Lewis Schaffer, Nunhead.

[Renata Hamvas]

To confirm again all the plans are for the Cemeteries and not outside the Cemetery boundaries.

There was a consultation that ran last year. Residents were asked if they want to stop all burials in Southwark or still have the option of a burial. They were asked if Southwark should purchase land elsewhere. Also whether existing grave space should be used. There was also whether Honor Oak Rec should be used as the land was originally purchased for burial.

What is being planned is based on the outcome of the consultation. There were and still are very different views on what should be done. There is no outcome which would please everyone eg there were/are residents who want Honor Oak Rec used, but this was a minority opinion. The same is true of buying land outside London. I suppose in this case, there would be the issue of Southwark residents having access to their loved one's graves. I know of elderly residents who visit their relative's/spouses grave on a daily basis.This was not a favoured option either.

The general consensus was, don't use Honor Oak Rec, do give the option for burial in Southwark and reuse burial space.

Those of you who are aware of what is going on at the Wood Vale side of Honor Oak Old Cemetery will know that trees were surveyed, the majority of healthy specimens will remain and many new trees are to be planted. A similar strategy is being used elsewhere.

The burial strategy is just that a strategy, so it can be altered, in fact there will be some further discussions in 2years time. If anyone has a solution to the burial issue that wasn't in the consultation please let me know.

There probably isn't a perfect solution, but given all the different options and views of Southwark residents, what is being done, is probably the best option at the moment.

Renata

[edborders]

Renata - We know the plans are just for the cemeteries.

We are concerned about woodland and open fields IN the three cemeteries are being destroyed as we speak.

The Council gave us a false choice - they had no intention of tearing up the playing fields - didn't they? Their intention was to rip out the life above the graves - all the bushes, and flowers and meadows and small saplings - that make the cemeteries the Lungs of London.

Where are 5000 graves going? "Re-using" graves means destroying habitat.

The false choice: destroy a playing field or "re-using old graves". Like nothing is growing on the graves.

Renata - has an environmental impact statement been made on the loss of precious habitat?

My earlier post where I accuse the Council of presenting a false choice:

http://lewisschaffer.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/how-camberwell-old-cemetery-wood-was-lost/

Please Renata, help stop this devastation.

[henryb]

I agree with that.

If there was a question on the consultation that asked: "Do you want local woodland and wildlife preserves in the borough destroyed to make way for new burial plots?" - then I think there would have been an overwhelmingly negative response.

[sjf1]

edborders Wrote:

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> There are plans afoot to destroy wild and green

> places in all three of our cemeteries.

>

>

>

> Who is going to speak up for East Dulwich, Dulwich

> and Nunhead and stop this?

>

> The original post: "Will we regret cutting down

> the new forests of Southwark?" Click below.

>

> http://lewisschaffer.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/cutt

> ing-down-the-new-forest/

>

> Lewis Schaffer, Nunhead.

The photo you posted shows the section of Camberwell New Cemetery where my son is buried. Perhaps you could show a little more consideration for the families of the deceased. My son's grave is not forgotten or ignored.

[Michael Palaeologus]

These are not wild spaces. They are, at best, feral spaces. Once used as active cemetaries, then neglected because they were full and of no use, now they are to be re-used for there original purpose.

Some wildlife will be displaced. No species will disappear, no genus wiped out.

If the Council was senstive to local concerns they could create environmentally friendly burial spaces with a rural feel, irregular grave patterns, between existing mature growth. This instead of the rather sterile approach so often seen in cemetaries. Of course this is probably more expensive to maintain.

It may be that changing demographics mean demand for burials will increase. Many religions and cultures require burial rather than cremation.

Where are we surposed to put the bodies?

[dbboy]

I noticed the Council are now using the land at the very front of Camberwell Old Cemetary on Forest Hill Road, from the entrance down to the 63 bus stop. Clearly not ideal places to have put graves only feet away from the main road. Suppose it's part of the plan to use all available ground. I feel very sorry for families who have to tend and visit the graves of their loved ones. In rainy weather that land must drain lots of water off based on what runs from the cemetary onto Forest Hill Road.

[henryb]

> These are not wild spaces. They are, at best,

> feral spaces. Once used as active cemetaries, then

> neglected because they were full and of no use,

> now they are to be re-used for there original

> purpose.

Some of the areas destined for clearing have never been used for burials and have been established wooded areas for many years. They contain mature oaks and other native species and much wildlife. I suggest you go have look around the areas marked D1/D2 in Camberwell New Cemetery on the strategy document.

> Some wildlife will be displaced. No species will

> disappear, no genus wiped out.

A environmental impact report would give a better assessment of the exact damage.

> If the Council was senstive to local concerns they

> could create environmentally friendly burial

> spaces with a rural feel, irregular grave

> patterns, between existing mature growth. This

> instead of the rather sterile approach so often

> seen in cemetaries. Of course this is probably

> more expensive to maintain.

> It may be that changing demographics mean demand

> for burials will increase. Many religions and

> cultures require burial rather than cremation.

>

> Where are we surposed to put the bodies?

Out of borough burials need to be provided. Other boroughs in London do this now and it will have to be done in Southwark once the wild areas in the current cemeteries have been cleared. This is only delaying that point.

I don?t think anyone wants them not to be primarily places of memorial but they need to used in a way that is sustainable and less damaging to the environment.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I dont need to look at the place. We are lucky in that we have a zillion acres of parkland in the immediate area. A bit of scrub land really isnt going to make any difference. Getting transfixed by the fate of a few acres of land is missing the point. We live in a city, not the countryside. People come first.

I grew up in the middle of a forest and woodland. This is not proper woodland. It never has been big enough to have the density and diversity of growth to be a fully balanced woodland. In the scheme of things, its a hankie of land with trees and shrubs.

If a rare plant or animal species is found, then, as happened elsewhere, they can be transplanted to another more appropriate (ie the proper countryside) habitat. That a few urban foxes and a squabble of green parakeets have to find new homes is not an ecological disaster.

The gree environment is vital, but the real battle is to be had in rutal areas which are threatened by the doing away of green belts.

It will be interesting to see how many mature, healthy, indigenous trees are to be brought down, rather than the apocalyptic picture that the whippers up of public moral outrage paint.

[Eddleston]

What about placing the ashes among the woods? Get?s more and more fashionable these days.