Parking Ticket - Loading

[Elfy]

I've just been given a parking ticket in the Loading Bay on Shawbury Road.

The parking sign says: Loading Only 8.30 - 6.30 1 hour. I had parked the car in order to take some things to the charity shop. The ticket says they waited 5 mins. I was probably parked there for about 20 mins.

Can I appeal this ticket? Does taking things to a charity shop not count as 'Loading'. It really annoys me. Why put 1 hour on the sign if actually it means you have to be in your car or not leave it for more than 5 mins.

Anyone appealed a parking ticket like this?

[kford]

Appeal, saying you were delivering heavy bags to the charity shop and get the shop to confirm this.

[bels123]

They have to see you loading within the 5 mins they monitor, otherwise you?re just parked. I wouldn?t bother appealing, those are the rules.

[Elfy]

It doesn't state the rules on the sign. Are we just meant to know the rules?

[Elfy]

I have appealed. It's actually quite easy to do. I'm sure you're all on the edges of your seat about this one, so will let you know how it goes....

[carlafindle]

Yup, can't wait...

[ianr]

You don't give all the facts, but from skimming through some of the key cases at https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?field_subjects_value=Loading%2FUnloading+exemptions I wouldn't rule out your having an arguable case, the 5 minutes interval notwithstanding. One important factor would be that it was solely unloading/delivering, rather than shopping.

I'd start at the Bosworth et al.(2016) and Matin (2014) judgments, for summaries of some of the current established case law. I see that Louise Landih v. TfL, which as summarised in Bosworth involved an attempt to deliver a lawnmower to, and collect a chair from, an Oxfam shop, might have succeeded, if she hadn't messed it up by doing some shopping for small items at the same time.

PS Though your twenty minutes parked, which I've just noticed, does look potentially excessive, and I think would need justifying if alleged; as does your five minute absence. The fact that a maximum of an hour is permitted for un/loading is irrelevant.

[herne hilly]

if it doesn't cost anything , its worth a shot. But if they are being strict with the load/unload rule, they could argue that if you were unloading, you should have returned to your car within the 5 mins unloaded all the items in the shop and then parked elsewhere and returned to the shop to discuss.

[gbal30]

When I last spoke to a traffic warden(?) about this a few weeks ago in Peckham, he said that loading bays are for commercial vehicles only (vans and lorries) and that there must be visible indications that you are in the midst of loading/unloading. Very annoying to say the least - I?m a lot more weary now. I find leaving your hazard lights flashing in these bays is always a good idea too. Hope this helps.

[sheff]

I think you should appeal.

The sign states 1 hour.

And southwark council website also states similar.

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking/guide-to-parking/loading-and-unloading

[ianr]

> I think you should appeal. The sign states 1 hour.

That grants permission to use the bay for up to one hour only to someone engaged in un/loading throughout the period.

[ianr]

gbal30 Wrote:

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> When I last spoke to a traffic warden(?) about

> this a few weeks ago in Peckham, he said that

> loading bays are for commercial vehicles only

Unless the relevant Traffic Management Orders say that, it seems ill-advised. It looks to me like a misunderstanding of the official guidance, from both https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking/guide-to-parking/loading-and-unloading and https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/parking-services/parking-and-traffic/parking-advice-members-public/loading-and-unloading#Parking%20bays, which includes:

"All commercial deliveries and collections (including multi-drop and couriers) are included in the exemption."

That guidance doesn't mention commercial vehicles. Nor does it say that non-commercial un/loading etc may not come within the exemption. The Bosworth judgment (p11; linked above) is content to include stopping to load the paid-for booty from a supermarket shopping session, and to include in its summary (attached) motorists acting in a private capacity. I think incidentally that it's also arguable here, though not necessary to do so, that delivery of donations to a charity shop would in any case count as a commercial delivery.

[emu]

Best to stay out of loading bays in a private car regardless of any sense of entitlement.

Loading bays are generally long enough to accommodate a lorry. Taking a lorry space to park a car for up to one hour would defeat the purpose of the loading bay.

[ed26]

The rules are not clear and are applied inconsistently between TfL and different Boroughs.

A few years ago, I dropped my wife in Wandsworth in a TFL unloading bay. We got out and she got her luggage out of the boot. I got a ticket from a CCTV. I checked the TFL description which said that we could "unload goods." I appealed and was let off with a warning, being told that "goods" should be bulky boxes, not bags (albeit large, heavy ones).

More recently, I had to pick up a large item from Argos on Rye Lane. I popped down to check the signposts before going home for the car. The bay on Elm Grove states "loading only" https://goo.gl/maps/QaEXjKJyXgeuDF6q9 and Holly Grove states "goods vehicles only" https://goo.gl/maps/pfhvTrZ8ntu299AN7

The moment I parked on Elm Grove, a Civil Enforcement Officer (Traffic Warden) approached me and told me I couldn't park there as it is for goods vehicles only. I disputed this and pointed out the "goods vehicles only" sign on Holly Grove. In the end, he told me he would give me a ticket if I parked there, but that I could park on the double yellow lines on Rye Lane as long as it was clear that I was loading. So I parked, left the boot open, hazard lights on, got my parcel, and came back to a traffic jam of buses trying to get past my car.

The Southwark parking descriptions did state that I can park on a double yellow to load/unload, as long as there's no kerb markings. I enquired to Southwark about the correct process and they confirmed the Traffic Warden was wrong - there are loading spaces for non-commercial vehicles. They did confirm the 5 minute rule as above, but this only states that a "PCN would be issued." It doesn't state that it would be upheld if you could prove that you took more than 5 mins to unload something.

[Pugwash]

I will have to 'unload' a person with a rollator frame in the next couple of days, in order that they can attend their dentist. this will be in Lordship lane. He cannot use public transport and just about able to get in a car. I hope that I can stop a few yards from the Post Office area for a few minutes. We have arranged that since his appointment could be anything from 15 minutes - 45 minutes that I return home and he will ring me when free.

[Elfy]

Update - the council have responded to my appeal. The fine still stands unless I can prove with a delivery note or receipt of goods note from the charity shop. I've been in there to ask and they've given me the head office to call as they've never had to do such a thing before. Fingers crossed they are amenable to issuing a backdated receipt of goods. Otherwise I'm ?65 down.

An expensive trip to the chazza!

As an aside, I checked the sign and there is no mention of commercial or non-commercial goods 'loading'. I also think the fact they've written 1 hour on the sign is almost a trick. On nowhere on the sign does it mention the 5 minutes they actually give you. Do we have to check each Borough's parking rules online before we park? It's almost as if it's a money making scheme...

[ED - NAGAIUTB]

As a very loose rule of thumb - your vehicle (van/lorry/car etc) needs to be open to be considered loading. So tailgate/boot open if it's a car.

Even then you're still more likely than not to get a ticket because y'know.....Southwark.

[Sue]

ED - NAGAIUTB Wrote:

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> As a very loose rule of thumb - your vehicle

> (van/lorry/car etc) needs to be open to be

> considered loading. So tailgate/boot open if it's

> a car.

>

> Even then you're still more likely than not to get

> a ticket because y'know.....Southwark.

But surely depending on how far you have to carry the goods you are loading or unloading, you aren't going to leave your car unattended with the boot open???

[edcam]

Pay the fine and move on.

[Sue]

edcam Wrote:

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> Pay the fine and move on.

Lucky you if you can afford to lose ?65 when you acted in good faith!

[peckman]

You have no chance. I know it's annoying but they will not consider any appeals unless it meets (or rather dossnt) a set criteria . You are probably in the right but also I dont think it takes 20 minutes to drop some stuff at a charity shop ? They have got you I'm afraid and the time etc it takes to deal with an appeal is not worth it . You wont win I'm afraid

[peckman]

And I know as I used to work for a council considering these . You could really go for the technicality of t and cs arent displayed but I reckon they will have an answer to that . Did you read in the news about the bloke that spent 30k in legal fees contesting at 100 quid fine . I dont think you will get anywhere .. I suppose there argument will be is you are not loading if you have gone for 20 minutes ?

[Elfy]

I'm certainly not planning on spending ?30k in legal fees! So far the appeal is all online. I'm not planning on going to court. The charity shop kindly provided a goods receipt for me, so I've forwarded that to Southwark. I do think there's a problem with the t and cs on the sign but if I don't get anywhere with the receipt of goods, I will probably just pay the fine.

Re the 20 minutes, they only waited 5 minutes to see if I was loading or not.

[edcam]

I've never understood the rules of loading bays, so I've never parked in one. It's unwise to guess at these things.

If youSue Wrote:

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> edcam Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Pay the fine and move on.

>

> Lucky you if you can afford to lose ?65 when you

> acted in good faith!

[Elfy]

Ah hindsight is a marvellous thing. I won't park in them in the future too. I may have got it mixed up with something else in my head. The fact it said 1 hour on it certainly confused me. Anyway...it's done now. Just waiting to hear from Southwark.

edcam Wrote:

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> I've never understood the rules of loading bays,

> so I've never parked in one. It's unwise to guess

> at these things.

>

>