Innate differences between boys and girls?

[cashewnut]

I don't like it when people suggest that there are already differences in behaviour between baby boys and baby girls. I think this is mainly for two reasons:

- I don't believe it. My daughter is certainly not more placid than her male peers, and instinctively I think that innate differences between boys and girls are overstated even for grown ups.

- I don't like the idea of my daughter hearing, as she grows up, that people expect her to behave differently to boys. I think the female stereotype can be quite limiting and I don't want her to conform to it.

I'm interested to hear from people with older girls. Am I being silly? If there are differences how and when do they manifest themselves? (Talking pre-puberty here really.) Or what are the best ways you found to avoid social pressure on your daughters to become a pink girly girl?

[Saffron]

As soon as the gametes unite into a fertilised egg, there are identifiable differences between male and female that continue throughout the lifetime. Basically, men and women are different, and these differences begin at conception. However, these actual, measurable differences do get mixed up with societal beliefs, which is unfortunate. Instead of avoiding any particular stereotype, why not offer a range of options to your children and let them choose how they want to express themselves. It might be "pinky girly", or it might not.

[nunheadmum]

We tried our best not to be pink girly but eldest is very pink girly but youngest is not into it at all - loves Fireman Sam, Bob the Builder, Lego and her babies. So same influences at home (if anything more pink around the youngest due to elder one) but totally different children.

I thnk all you can do is expose them to lots of different things and let them decide for themselves what they like.....and then just give in if they do continually go for the pink option. Just help them to appreciate that pink doesn't have to mean fluffy in all aspects!!

[melbourne groover]

I think they go through stages of being very into all things girly and times when not so. As said above, give options and they usually find what they really like eventually.

Personality and friend groups do play a large part also, but some things are definately innate (or so it seems to me). I guess it is how you deal with it. I just try and reiterate girls can do anything, and give the same level of positivity to my son.

The super girlie phase including a desperate longing to only be read the traditional ladybird stories (urg was not keen on these) and wear all things pink was actually pretty short and seems a distant memory now...

[oimissus]

is this something that people only worry about with concern to girls - do parents of sons worry that they might end up being testosterone-fuelled, uber-blokey rugger-buggers (mmm, nice) if they play with too many diggers and wear too much navy blue?

Seriously, I think it's your own personal influence that matters most. Really, it shouldn't matter if your daughter wants to play princesses all the time when she's 3, doesn't mean she can't become a doctor, lawyer or brain surgeon. Or a nurse, hairdresser or beautician, if that's what she wants.

I actually think that stereotypes have broken down far more for girls than boys, and it's easier for them in a way - if they want to go to a fancy dress party as a pirate, no-one would comment, but a boy going as a fairy would raise a few eyebrows I bet, and not just amongst the older generation either.

[Saffron]

oimissus Wrote:

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> is this something that people only worry about

> with concern to girls - do parents of sons worry

> that they might end up being testosterone-fuelled,

> uber-blokey rugger-buggers (mmm, nice) if they

> play with too many diggers and wear too much navy

> blue?

>

> Seriously, I think it's your own personal

> influence that matters most. Really, it shouldn't

> matter if your daughter wants to play princesses

> all the time when she's 3, doesn't mean she can't

> become a doctor, lawyer or brain surgeon. Or a

> nurse, hairdresser or beautician, if that's what

> she wants.

>

> I actually think that stereotypes have broken down

> far more for girls than boys, and it's easier for

> them in a way - if they want to go to a fancy

> dress party as a pirate, no-one would comment, but

> a boy going as a fairy would raise a few eyebrows

> I bet, and not just amongst the older generation

> either.

Did you see that brilliant Belgian film (1997) "Ma Vie en Rose"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_vie_en_rose

[oimissus]

I haven't, no - sounds interesting! Not sure what point you're making though . . . ? That if a boy wants to wear a dress that means he's really a girl? (I may have misunderstood the plot summary.) I'm wearing trousers as we type - definitely not a man the last time I checked!

[Saffron]

Not not at all. Maybe wiki not the best summary... I thought the film was a touching message about accepting children for who they are without needing to put our own conformisn on them one way or another... re boys being dressed as fairies vs girls dressed as pirates.

[cashewnut]

I love that film! Great soundtrack too.

Saffron can the differences you mention explain differences in behaviour or are they physical?

Personally (I think) I would be less worried about stereotyping for a boy. I take your point about fancy dress (and macho types), but generally I think the female stereotype is more limiting.

[oimissus]

Saffron - ah yes, that does sound good, I probably skim read it a bit too much.

I've been thinking about it and I think you don't need to worry if this is not your family's outlook (which it sounds like it isn't). For example, my mother and her 4 sisters, all now in their seventies, would have been brought up in a society which was pretty rigidly gender stereotypical, and yet they all went on to higher education and were all professional women (lawyer / dentist / head teacher etc). I don't recall my sister or I being expected to 'be' a certain way, and I know that neither of our daughters will have that either, regardless of what anyone else may say (we both have fairly trad in-laws but I'm not too concerned about their influence in this way).

[jonno]

My 5 year old daughters' boy friends are basically ferral in comparison to the girls. Of course there are exceptions on both sides of the equation with the odd bookish boy and "Ellen McArthur in the making" girl. Despite my best efforts to avoid my daughter's descent into "pinkdom" she is obsessed by clothes, nail varnish and refuses to go sailing because "it will be too windy and too cold". Watching the scrums at boys' birthday parties though I'm glad we had a girl although I suspect this could change when we get to the teenage years.

[bluesuperted]

Jonno's comment has summed up for me what I worry about, the other side of the coin for those of us with sons. My little boy could never be described as feral but he has boundless energy and does not like sitting still (at 21 months I don't expect him to!). However I think while with girls the pinkification and lack of female leads in stories etc is a big worry, the worry for boys is that society views their ebullience with disdain from a young age rather than letting them be until they are old enough to calm down a little. I think there are lots of disparaging comments made about boys even before birth that you don't hear about girls - oh you're overdue, you must have a lazy boy, oh you're having a boy, he's going to cause you trouble and be a massive handful, a second boy? Oh you must have been hoping for a girl, will you try again? Or after, what a greedy little boy (re feeding, have never heard the same said about newborn girls), it's kind of sad that we start with the negativities of boydom so soon. There's a great book called Raising Cain written by two male psychiatrists who explain how boys are treated emotionally very differently to girls, basically told to man up from an early age and not given the same level of emotional guidance and therefore literacy that girls are. Really recommend the book, it really makes you think about society's prejudices towards males and consequently why boys/men are far more likely to fail/get into trouble at school and in life than girls - as a bit of a feminist not something I'd given much though to pre-children!

Slightly off topic but something I think about and notice a lot now I have a son, the other thing being that parents of quiet, 'typical' little girls often don't understand the very different needs and nature of toddler and preschooler boys. I know nothing about looking after little girls and defer to parents who do, but sometimes, if in receipt of a withering glance from a parent with an exceptionally still daughter in a music group or whatever, I do feel like saying, do you also have a son, because if not, do not judge!!

Personally I adore having a boy and would happily have four! My son is a Duracell bunny of energy but he is also loving, kind and sweet-natured. Just because he won't yet sit and follow instructions for a whole nursery rhyme does not make him troublesome or feral, just made a little differently.

[Mrs TP]

Girls screech around the house and boys thud.

[Saffron]

cashewnut Wrote:

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> I love that film! Great soundtrack too.

>

> Saffron can the differences you mention explain

> differences in behaviour or are they physical?

>

>

Yes physical differences in the brain do translate to differences in behaviour, eg due to differences in brain centres for language processing, spatial awareness, etc. Male and female brains are hardwired differently, and the differences do translate to behavioural differences. However, here again we probably find the lines between actual differences and societal notions are blurred, because probably some of what we think of as differences are really just our different responses to boys v girls as per social norms.

Personally, instead of seeing the differences between the sexes as "weaknesses" in one or the other, I think we should celebrate the differences. Just take a physical example. Men have a lot of upper body strength, whereas women have a lot of endurance. The world record for deadlifing is held by a man (Benedikt Magnusson). It will probably always be held by a man. However, the notoriously difficult and physically challenging Badminton Horse Trial has been won the most times by a woman (Lucinda Green), and a woman also won it three times in a row (Sheila Wilcox).

Sadly some differences do disadvantage women. For example, negative marking on multiple choice tests disadvantages girls b/c of innate differences in risk-taking and test strategy. It's a real shame that some top level UK universities are still emplying negative marking on multiple choice tests.

[Scruffy Mummy]

I have a lively little boy & although his energy can be tiring, I enjoy that lively energy that he has. He also has a number of girl friends and classmates who are possessed of similiar lively energy! I think we can all be guilty of being disdainful of behaviour we are not familiar with. Personally I find myself rolling my eyes when I am with a quiet child who uses quiet whinging to get attention - that low level hum of whingyness that I find those quiet girls and boys tend to is far more annoying for me than a loud, exhurberent child who clearly states what they want. And looking at the adult world, while being quiet, sitting still & obdient is seen as 'good' in school/by adults, those are not generally skills that are seen as valuable in the world of work! However, introverts have been shown to have alot of important and much needed skills in the world which can be overlooked in the adult world of work which tends to value the extrovert more.

Also I notice the girls in my sons class have already developed more complex cliques and social networks in which hierarchies are established which brings back my own memories of feeling excluded and unpopular. Whereas the boys just seem to get on with it - although of course they have best friends and groups they will also just get on and seem more willing to play with whom ever is around.

[hpsaucey]

I'll second this.

Jonno - guess you need to have boys to know them properly ....

bluesuperted Wrote:

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> Jonno's comment has summed up for me what I worry

> about, the other side of the coin for those of us

> with sons. My little boy could never be described

> as feral but he has boundless energy and does not

> like sitting still (at 21 months I don't expect

> him to!). However I think while with girls the

> pinkification and lack of female leads in stories

> etc is a big worry, the worry for boys is that

> society views their ebullience with disdain from a

> young age rather than letting them be until they

> are old enough to calm down a little. I think

> there are lots of disparaging comments made about

> boys even before birth that you don't hear about

> girls - oh you're overdue, you must have a lazy

> boy, oh you're having a boy, he's going to cause

> you trouble and be a massive handful, a second

> boy? Oh you must have been hoping for a girl, will

> you try again? Or after, what a greedy little boy

> (re feeding, have never heard the same said about

> newborn girls), it's kind of sad that we start

> with the negativities of boydom so soon. There's a

> great book called Raising Cain written by two male

> psychiatrists who explain how boys are treated

> emotionally very differently to girls, basically

> told to man up from an early age and not given the

> same level of emotional guidance and therefore

> literacy that girls are. Really recommend the

> book, it really makes you think about society's

> prejudices towards males and consequently why

> boys/men are far more likely to fail/get into

> trouble at school and in life than girls - as a

> bit of a feminist not something I'd given much

> though to pre-children!

>

> Slightly off topic but something I think about and

> notice a lot now I have a son, the other thing

> being that parents of quiet, 'typical' little

> girls often don't understand the very different

> needs and nature of toddler and preschooler boys.

> I know nothing about looking after little girls

> and defer to parents who do, but sometimes, if in

> receipt of a withering glance from a parent with

> an exceptionally still daughter in a music group

> or whatever, I do feel like saying, do you also

> have a son, because if not, do not judge!!

>

> Personally I adore having a boy and would happily

> have four! My son is a Duracell bunny of energy

> but he is also loving, kind and sweet-natured.

> Just because he won't yet sit and follow

> instructions for a whole nursery rhyme does not

> make him troublesome or feral, just made a little

> differently.

[Belle]

Yes, BST I could have written that about my first son at that age, and to be honest still could now at 3 and 1/4!

Hmm there was a book on this subject recently, by the daughter of the writer Anne Fine - think her name is Cordelia Fine, and I think she basically said there are no differences and it's all societal.This is a very crude summary, I only read an article and not the book.

[hpsaucey]

OR - you could go on Rosendale's 'Raising Boys' course, and find out that its a mixture, unsurprisingly, of nature and nurture.... Bloody good course.

[hpsaucey]

LOVE THIS - spot on! Mrs TP - you must have both?????

Helen

Mrs TP Wrote:

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> Girls screech around the house and boys thud.

[TE44]

My boys are all very different, as is my daughter. I grew up in a big family, 3 sisters and 5 brothers,

I was very resentful of the different chores for the boys, while the domestic chores were specifically for

us girls. When I had my own children, and all so different, I realised that it was impossible to attach them to

male or female.They are all older now, and all have there own views on this topic. It made me laugh to read one post about boys dressing up, when one of my sons was about 7 he went to a fancy dress party as a girl, (gotta say he looked so pretty)

at my friends house, his sisters friend ( a little boy who constantly challenged everyone) asked why he'd came wearing a dress, to which my son replied seriously, its the only one that fitted.

[Belle]

hpsaucey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> OR - you could go on Rosendale's 'Raising Boys'

> course, and find out that its a mixture,

> unsurprisingly, of nature and nurture.... Bloody

> good course.

Yes, I've heard that about that course. Sorry, i didn't really make it clear in my post that the Cordelia Fine approach, or what little I know of it, is not one I tend to agree with! My son has girl friends who are every bit as 'exuberant' as him, and some who are not,a nd the same mix with the boys. I would also tend to think it's a mixture of nature and nurture just based on my own (fairly limited) experience so far.

[hpsaucey]

Lol - yes my experience is pretty limited as well - my boys are only 6 and 4. We bought magazines as a treat last week. The older one wanted Batman or something; the younger bought a princess one with lipstick and sparkly wand. He also likes painting his nails, but is a real 'boy' whatever that means. I wonder if I'd have been happy buying a magazine with a lipstick for a 4-year old girl????? Probably not. Confusing...

Belle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hpsaucey Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > OR - you could go on Rosendale's 'Raising Boys'

> > course, and find out that its a mixture,

> > unsurprisingly, of nature and nurture....

> Bloody

> > good course.

>

>

> Yes, I've heard that about that course. Sorry, i

> didn't really make it clear in my post that the

> Cordelia Fine approach, or what little I know of

> it, is not one I tend to agree with! My son has

> girl friends who are every bit as 'exuberant' as

> him, and some who are not,a nd the same mix with

> the boys. I would also tend to think it's a

> mixture of nature and nurture just based on my own

> (fairly limited) experience so far.

[Mrs TP]

hpsaucey - I have girls but they have male cousins who visit. My girls can be quite 'thuddy' on the stairs but just not to the same degree.

Also our girls use our second to bottom stair as a spring board to leap from into the hall. I commented to a friend that the particular stair had become quite worn and was almost broken and said 'what would it be like if we had boys' and she replied 'broken'!

[Pickle]

I've just painted my sons toenails purple...

[The Nappy Lady]

I truly believe there are differences. First physically - over my years of doing nappy demos I noticed that boys often piled on the weight & got much chunkier sooner whilst girls seemed to often slim own faster....not always but often.

Then later boys are definitely more boisterous than girls and even the way the play is different - we gave my daughter a 'star projecting night light for Christmas when she was 3, she wanted to lie in a dark room and look at the stars, her male cousins wanted to shake it and take it apart to see how it worked!!

My friend had boy/girl twins the same time I had my youngest and again we found it really interesting to watch the three play - the boy really investigated toys in a different way.

Personally I believe these differences are entirely natural and my approach is to tell my girls (& all children) that they can do anything they put their minds to. I'm not going to pigeon hole them but I'm not going to try to quash their natural femininity either, it all works out in the end!! (very glad I had girls though. ;-)). )

Molly