More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday

[pk]

Loutwo Wrote:

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> > > > Loutwo Wrote:

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> > > You seem to think the EU is perfect,

> >

> > No, I?m in favour of reform. Where do you think

> I

> > said it was perfect?

> >

> > others think it is a

> > > dictatorship

> >

> > Who do they think is the dictator?

>

> The unelected commission which, although only a

> restricted arm of the larger beast, still wields

> enough power to represent and perpetuate a lack of

> transparency. Can you honestly tell me that

> European Parliament elections have a big enough

> turnout to represent the true opinions of most

> European citizens? I don?t see how it could be.

>

> Louisa.

It?s hard to represent people?s opinions if they can?t be bothered to express them I agree

But it?s far to say most dictators aren?t an executive body with representatives of 28 states

[Hemingway]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> dbboy Wrote:

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> > As I said previously May & Co faffed for three

> > years, Bojo is now enacting the outcome of the

> > referendum. If the govt failed to do this it

> would

> > not be doing the job it was elected to do

>

>

> May agreed a deal to leave, thus enacting the

> outcome of the referendum, it was voted for 3

> times by 'traitors' like Grieve and Hammond, even

> Johnson and Rees Mogg flipped on the third

> attempt. It failed primarily because of hardcore

> Brexiters voting against it, knowing it could lead

> to no deal.

Er,.... and the Labour Party, PC, SNP and the LDs

[diable rouge]

Obvs...

[JohnL]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> I agree it's not a coup. But it is dangerous

> constitutional impropriety. I think protestors

> against it are justified in using snappier

> language to get their message across.

In the same way judges were not "Enemies of the People" and Remainers are not "Traitors" and the rest from the usual suspects in the press.

'They're Jeremy Corbyn's useful idiots': Brexiteers demand Tory traitors face no confidence votes' Daily Mail

'Boris Johnson takes on the Tory Remainer traitors' Daily Mail

'Labour's Yvette Cooper branded 'TRAITOR' by constituents' Daily Express Daily Express

'Boris Johnson hits out at Remainer coup as he breaks silence on suspension of Parliament'

'Caroline Lucas plots farcical Brexit coup that includes female only 'emergency Cabinet'' Daily Express

[JohnL]

Hemingway Wrote:

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> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > dbboy Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> >

> > > As I said previously May & Co faffed for

> three

> > > years, Bojo is now enacting the outcome of

> the

> > > referendum. If the govt failed to do this it

> > would

> > > not be doing the job it was elected to do

> >

> >

> > May agreed a deal to leave, thus enacting the

> > outcome of the referendum, it was voted for 3

> > times by 'traitors' like Grieve and Hammond,

> even

> > Johnson and Rees Mogg flipped on the third

> > attempt. It failed primarily because of

> hardcore

> > Brexiters voting against it, knowing it could

> lead

> > to no deal.

>

> Er,.... and the Labour Party, PC, SNP and the LDs

LOL and the above - is Hammond and Grieve really - really by true definition a traitor.

[diable rouge]

That's why I wrote 'traitor' not traitor...

[JohnL]

Actually the closest we have at the moment is the Kim Darroch leak.

?We have prima facie evidence of a very serious crime.? Scotland Yard

[JohnL]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> That's why I wrote 'traitor' not traitor...

fair enough I get the ironic quotes - just saying all words are often overblown.

[dbboy]

@Number10cat

Follow Follow @Number10cat

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Boris Johnson has decided to get a pet dog. It?s small, irritating and moans when it doesn?t get attention. They?re calling it Gove.

12:21 PM - 1 Sep 2019

[paulu197]

Note that the PM is actually elected. We vote for a party not a leader, its the party's perogative to decide who should lead. Simple

[JohnL]

paulu197 Wrote:

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> Note that the PM is actually elected. We vote for

> a party not a leader, its the party's perogative

> to decide who should lead. Simple

Works in a parliamentary type democracy but we're moving towards one where the PM is much more Presidential and then there's Dom Cummings ;)

[diable rouge]

paulu197 Wrote:

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> Note that the PM is actually elected. We vote for

> a party not a leader, its the party's perogative

> to decide who should lead. Simple

Not so simple, many people will base their vote depending on who the party leader is, for example I won't vote for Labour while Corbyn is their leader...

[seenbeen]

Yes- I vote according to the manifesto that is put out there...who cares who the figure head is....unfortunately the number of U turns they all do is pretty alarming

[paulu197]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> paulu197 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Note that the PM is actually elected. We vote

> for

> > a party not a leader, its the party's

> perogative

> > to decide who should lead. Simple

>

> Not so simple, many people will base their vote

> depending on who the party leader is, for example

> I won't vote for Labour while Corbyn is their

> leader...

But if people don't know the system, you can't have them incorrectly announce that the leader is unelected when they are elected. SAme with Remain / Leave, people should always investigate the options at hand and make an informed decision.

Re: Corbyn. He calls the conservatives party as a party in shambles yet Labor is still only garnering 20% share of the vote according to the polls. IN all seriousness the Labor party should be at 45-50%...this falls on Corbyn. He needs to go. In order to have a decent government we need a decent opposition and Corbyn isn't. LAbor is not for the people but for the ideologies...it's a shame....and yes I am not a Labor voter...more centre right...don't hate me :)

[paulu197]

And this pretty much sums it up and you can take polls with a grain of salt. Despite all the protests...people are warming to Boris and cooling even more to Corbyn

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/02/after-one-month-prime-minister-public-attitudes-to

[Hemingway]

Politicians are all wankers putting political advantage over principles since year dot.

The less power and control they have the better.

- a referendum was put in the Tory manifesto for political expediency, but the promise probably did win the election for the Tories

- because useless Ed, whose reforms let the 3 quid trots back in remember, didn't win, even many sane Labour members went into some collective nervous breakdown and elected a useless , Marxist, anti-EU duffer into power at a critical time. (own it ,they've wrecked Labour as broad church left party, probably for ever)

- Cameron, convinced that Grant on the basis of Australian politics and his unexpected election victory (and lulled into a sense of security the Scottish referendum) was a genius, ran a project fear referendum campaign that was terrible; Corbyn held a few token rallies for remain but was largely absent from the 'MMS' and remain campaign

- Brexiters faired better with simple slogans, dog whistles and smarter analytics (see also Obama); they were also aided by events (Syria's implosion and Merkel's open invite and subsequent refugee crisis that peaked that year.

- having lost the referendum Cameron fucked off to his shed

- useless May believed the polls and her snap election disaster ruined any chance of a decent deal, backbenchers behaving or tougher negotiations; probably beyond her capability anyway.

- her deal, which was about as good as we could have got by then, was rejected on several occasions by the HoC

- All weekend it was a Coup and yet today no-one wants an election.

Useless waste of our time, resource and our country's reputation and standing; a plague on most of them (and us voters)

[Sephiroth]

I would agree with some of that Hems, but I?ll give my version (any instance of the word ?you? should not be aimed at you Hems)

If someone (anyone) gives you a dumb binary choice, don?t vote for the dumb one (no matter who they or you are). If they choose the dumb option then it really really is on them - not anyone else. If you really want to leave the eu, formulate a pragmatic version of how that would work over 5-10 years, stop calling the people you need deals with the enemy and then put that to a vote

careful what you wish for. If you keep voting in a rag tag Tory governments then the opposition will mutate to find the antidote

If a country constantly derides its politicians, clever people will swerve being them and we end up with career dullards and worse

Looking at other countries, nowhere is perfect. But the countries that have some kind of bond between electorate and politicians work best. Taking too much power from politicians doesn?t work too well (I?m open to being corrected)

Spending a week in another eu country this past week has been a blessed relief. They don?t hold their politicians in high regard but they also know they can?t deliver the undeliverable/undesirable.

Only the uk thinks this thing can and should be done - as long as it continues to think this way then it will continue to generate nothing but chaos and anger and impotent rage

[Loutwo]

Sephiroth, all of what you say is a good take on matters, but I think you?re missing one crucial point in all of your analysis.

In three words, The Conservative Party.

Consistently, since we joined the common market they have fought this internal battle with finding a post Empire place in the world, constantly harping back to the Second World War and consequent industrial decline of the country. It runs through the veins of this countries go-to party of Government. A large chunk of the party, ultimately have severe hang ups over all of the above, and need someone, something to blame. The EU is a constant thorn in the side of a party which still deep down believes we are too good to be part of such a post-national identity organisation.

It?s not just that the Tories are perceived as ?the natural party of government?, it?s that they have managed to make a substantial chunk of the British population believe their post-Empire hang ups are valid concerns. And that we can and must find a way to govern ourselves, whatever the cost. Unemployment, further decline, severed international relations, none of this matters as long as we are free.

This isn?t everyone of course, the left also have a good take on why supranational organisations such as the EU don?t work for the people. But the left has nowhere near as much influence on the British psyche as the Tories seem to have had over the generations. How we overcome that, I don?t know.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

I think by now most people who know me know my feelings on the tories

But I wanted to keep the tone general as both parties are as bad as each other. I think a brexit under Corbyn government will be a total disaster and will ruin labour for generations. And that saddens me

But do I think even that disaster would be better than allowing this Tory government to continue? Yes yes I do. But that?s FPTP for you. Uk f@@@ked that referendum as well

[Passiflora]

But Sephiroth, you have just spent a week in another EU country and said it was a blessed relief. Why?

As somebody who voted to Leave in the 2016 Referendum I really don't think the UK should be worried about how the EU are viewing us.

[Sephiroth]

By your own words are you damned

[exdulwicher]

Passiflora Wrote:

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> But Sephiroth, you have just spent a week in

> another EU country and said it was a blessed

> relief. Why?

>

> As somebody who voted to Leave in the 2016

> Referendum I really don't think the UK should be

> worried about how the EU are viewing us.

I think the UK needs to be very worried about how not just the EU but the entire rest of the world is viewing us. Never before has a country voluntarily elected to make itself poorer, less influential, more isolated. Never before has a Government been shown to be so wildly incompentent.

I mean, there are corrupt Governments, dictatorships etc but in a supposed democratic first-world nation, our Government has shown the world that it is composed almost entirely of a bunch of lying self-serving charlatans, spivs and incompetents. Newspapers all over the world are saying the same thing - countries are looking on in a mixture of sadness that a once-respected nation has sunk this low, incredulity that they're continuing on this course of action, and they're thinking - do we really want to do trade deals with these people, do we want them in collaborative porjects, do we want to use their services and goods, can we trust them?

So yes, our world standing is vitally important to us.

[Loutwo]

I don?t think we would be in this position if politicians had respected the result of the referendum and accepted May?s withdrawal agreement, months ago. Rather than this endless self-serving going round in circles, some wanting more referendums, some not wanting to leave at all, others want to leave without a deal. MP?s could have, and should have coalesced around that withdrawal agreement back in March and then worked together to shape the future negotiations. We would now at least have moved on from some of the polarisation and be talking about other stuff now.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

If mays deal passed it would have made everyone worse off and pleased no one

I know loads of people are seeing it as some sort of panacea but we would have left, no way back in and be worse off with endless finger pointing and blame doing the rounds. Mays deal is the answer to nothing (and if is resurrected and finally passed as a compromise, you can bookmark this post)

It?s entirely lazy thinking and indicative of this whole process - pretending only politicians didn?t want mays deal forgets entirely that most people didn?t want it either. Just like when this entire debacle is finished you won?t find anyone who admits to voting to leave

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2018/12/07/what-is-in-theresa-may-s-brexit-deal-and-why-is-it-so-unpopular

[Loutwo]

That?s utter rubbish. You will find plenty of people who openly admit to leaving and won?t be happy until we do leave. May?s deal now looks a fair compromise compared to the current setup. A second referendum won?t pass, no-deal looks unlikely to pass, even a general election looks unlikely to be approved. Therefore, the withdrawal agreement does seem like a good middle road out. The EU won?t negotiate anything else at this stage anyway. If we just get MPs to pass the withdrawal agreement and then get a cross party future relationship negotiation team together, we can start healing these wounds.

I honestly can?t see any other middle way out, which will start the healing process whilst also respecting the referendum outcome.

Louisa.