Revised new - M&S planning application to replace Iceland..

[Louisa]

I am a vocal supporter of working class culture and come from a working class background. For once, this isn't about that. There is an Iceland store within walking distance in Peckham, this is not the issue. I fear the issue comes from a small group of vocal residents who for some reason want to secure the utopian independent shopping culture of ED. Unfortunately, if this is the case, then this view is flawed. Time and time again the landing of a big retail name (in proportion to the other local retailers) actually helps and promotes those smaller businesses. This is not about delivery times or parking fears, it's a small format store. I hope I'm wrong about this, if not we may have a prime spot on our high street empty for a very long time.

Louisa.

[Penguin68]

Louisa writes:- if not we may have a prime spot on our high street empty for a very long time.

I agree, my added fear is that it may be the first of many.

[*Bob*]

I see what you're saying. If there's no place where you can buy six biscuits for ?2, then the butchers might close.

[Penguin68]

No, what I am saying is that, if you go somewhere else to buy your biscuits because there is no biscuit shop to your liking, you may well then choose to buy your meat at that location as well, as it's more efficient and, probably more to the point, when shops close (as they do naturally, particularly non-chains when the circumstances of their owners change) then other shops are less likely to want to open in an area which has closed and abandoned (or otherwise 'low rent') shops.

The drawback of small, local, shops is that there is frequently no natural continuity of ownership. If the 'family' doesn't want to take it over, you have to sell it - people will not buy retail businesses in areas which look as if they are going down.

If there is, however, a 'destination' shop in the locale, it will attract others.

William Rose has already closed one local shop. Don't assume any local shop will be here for the duration. They will be here for as long as there's (profitable) footfall (passing trade) of the demographic they are designed to address.

Most of the local shops (butchers, delis. cheese shops) are also selling ?2 biscuits (or the equivalent) - most of the new successful (so far) little local shops are catering to the M&S demographic - don't be so sniffy about what M&S could offer. The worries of those to whom Iceland is economically attractive clearly are not being delivered elsewhere locally, otherwise they wouldn't be so upset about its possible closure.

[*Bob*]

I'm not against an M&S by any means (back to those cheese tasters). I just don't believe that the fabric of SE22 is likely to crumble without it. That folks will be clustered around braziers and burned-out cars in 2020 muttering "if only M&S had come.."

I find it a bit embarrassing that this is THE issue that people just can't get enough of. It's like when Mitcham got its Harvester, only worse. It's just a shop, not an elixir for eternal youth and happiness.

I love the notion that there's a secret conspiracy, a cabal of anti-Emmanessars sworn to keep miniature pots of couscous and sundried tomatoes out of East Dulwich - or die trying. Rather than the simple truth that the planning office turned the application down.

[hoser]

Louisa Wrote:

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> I'm with Penguin on this too. High streets up and

> down the country are struggling with empty retail

> spaces and falling footfall. We have the

> opportunity to attract a high end chain onto our

> main drag, which would compliment and perhaps

> reinvigorate the reputation of the area. What are

> we left with now? An empty neglected retail unit

> in the heart of our shopping centre. What would

> any visitor to the area think of this? I just hope

> Waitrose will feel the gap if M&S become bored of

> the constant moaning and groaning about the

> parking and other related issues. Such a terrible

> shame. It was only 25 years ago M&S decided to

> leave Peckham and look what's become of Rye Lane.

> As was said before, you'll be regretting this if

> no one now fills the gap.

>

> Louisa.

Rye Lane is awesome!

[Worker]

"I find it a bit embarrassing that this is THE issue that people just can't get enough of. It's like when Mitcham got its Harvester, only worse. It's just a shop, not an elixir for eternal youth and happiness."

Only in the limited context of the EDF Bob, which most people use to catch up on local events, gossip, etc. They deal with more important issues in the real world.

[Penguin68]

This thread, inter alia, encapsulates debates about:-

The future look and feel (and fears thereof) of Lordship Lane - the main social and shopping drag of ED

Social class division and changes thereof in ED

Nimby-ism and the greatest good for greatest number debates

Conerns about over-crowding, parking and disruption

Concerns about change

All of which seem to me to be the warp and weft of a community blog.

[Louisa]

hoser Wrote:

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>

> Rye Lane is awesome!

I couldn't disagree more! I've lived here all my life and remember Rye Lane when it was a great retail destination, with numerous major department stores. It's now dominated by dirty butchers and fishmongers and is more akin to a third world street market than a thriving UK high street. If we want LL to turn into Rye Lane then lets tell M&S and every other chain store to move out and we can have a dirty stinking main drag where health inspectors are too scared to set foot! No thanks!

Louisa.

[Sue]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am a vocal supporter of working class culture

> and come from a working class background. For

> once, this isn't about that. There is an Iceland

> store within walking distance in Peckham,

xxxxxxx

It's within walking distance if you don't mind a half hour walk there and a half hour walk back, which is about what it would be for me.

Compared to a two minute walk for me to the Lordship Lane branch (which btw has six large free-range eggs for a pound. Bargain.)

[Louisa]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I am a vocal supporter of working class culture

> > and come from a working class background. For

> > once, this isn't about that. There is an

> Iceland

> > store within walking distance in Peckham,

>

> xxxxxxx

>

> It's within walking distance if you don't mind a

> half hour walk there and a half hour walk back,

> which is about what it would be for me.

>

> Compared to a two minute walk for me to the

> Lordship Lane branch (which btw has six large

> free-range eggs for a pound. Bargain.)

Sue, I appreciate your argument and I love Iceland as you know, but they do deliveries and at worst it's a short bus/car ride away if you don't fancy the walk. M&S is much further away and parking is a major issue for Walworth Road and Beckenham branches of M&S. either way, I'd rather see one of the, rather than an empty retail space and that will be the result!

Louisa.

[bil]

Clapham high street has both a little waitrose and an Iceland within a few doors of each other. There is a sainsburys across the road and numerous independent shops, a cinema and some high quality restaurants. It is thriving and mixed. Why do we argue that we have to have one or the other?

The bottom of LL has become really congested now especially between Oliver Bonas and Co-op. The traffic flow has been brought to near stand-still. Green and blue is empty and there are a few other empty shops. It doesn't have the same vibe and I miss Blue mountain.

[Marmora Man]

And meanwhile "over the hill" in HONOR Oak Park a Sainsbury's local is being created with no fuss

[Jeremy]

bil Wrote:

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> Why do we argue that we have to have one or the other?

I'm sure we could have both if there was an available premises. But the title of the thread is "M&S planning application to replace Iceland", so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

> I miss Blue mountain.

I believe it will be back after a refurb.

[the-e-dealer]

It could be an M&S on Odd days and ICELAND on Even Days . Closed Sundays. Problem Solved!

[Jeremy]

This whole brouhaha inspired me to take a trip to Iceland for myself while I still have the chance.

The fresh stuff didn't seem much cheaper than Saino's (apart from the odd special offer), and the selection was tiny. The frozen food however was dirt cheap. In fact I can't think of any cheaper way to feed yourself. But it was pretty grotty stuff.

http://fishfingersarnie.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/weekend-in-iceland.html

[Louisa]

I wonder what Waitrose is thinking about all of this?

Louisa.

[Gimme]

Which of the 44 pages do I go to to find the opening date of the new M&S?

[Mick Mac]

Try page 43,546. That's when we will get one.

[healey]

On exactly what grounds was this rejected?

[Otta]

They thought it would be a giggle to wind up the people of ED.

It's like showing a dying man in the desert a bottle of water, but not actually letting him have it. You give him a bottle of Rola Cola instead.

[Penguin68]

There was no, repeat NO, planning application by or for an M&S - there was a planning application by the owner of the Iceland site to replace, if I recall correctly, offices with flats and extend the retail area downstairs into the carpark. The plans submitted showed signage for M&S and it has been assumed by everyone that M&S has been negotiated with to replace Iceland, HOWEVER, as I understand it, the reasons for turning down the application are associated with e.g the actual plans, the impact of reducing shopping parking paces locally, the impact of building close to existing buildings etc. etc. - i.e. standard planning criteria. Some local complaints have been put forward based on estimates or fears of the impact of deliveries to an M&S store and how this would effect those living in the side street, and by people with properties adjacent to the existing car park on their loss of amenity.

At no time has, per se a plan for an M&S to operate in LL been turned down, just the specific changes to the Iceland site which would have increased the value for the site owner and make a store such as an M&S a viable proposition, the existing store footprint being too small and not having sufficient storage space, as it stands.

The headline to this thread should always have read - Planning Application for Iceland site - I am sure that M&S, if they are working with the site owner, have input their requirements, but this has never been an M&S Planning application. Why woud they be interested in the usage (i.e. flats) of the area above which they would have rented?

[Jeremy]

Penguin, I applaud you for trying, but it's like banging your head against a brick wall. People seem to think that the council specifically rejected an M&S store.

From James' blog:

East Dulwich councillors had called-in this decision due to impacts it would have and that so many details had not been properly thought through.

So we?ve now heard that the application has been assessed by council planning officers as being unacceptable on transport and amenity grounds and has been rejected.

 

[James Barber]

Hi P68,

I know that M&S are the intending a new shop for the site whose latest planning application been rejected.

The application was fundamentally flawed. Stupid things like building on land the freeholder doesnt own and the owner wont sell. Stupids things like not telling the legal land owner which is a legal requirement. I'm relieved its been refused but seek a permanent solution to this site.

As you say it seems clear Iceland have decided its not worth staying compared to increased rent.

Personally I'd welcome M&S. I think it will generate more business for Lordship Lane. But I don't want to see the problems that the Somerfield extension and flats above cause neighbouring streets (smidgen before I was elected in 2006). I also know Waitrose have told the freeholder they'll happilly move in as the site currently is.

So I don't fear for Lordship Lane due to this shop remaining empty at some point. And while the Freeholder gets their act together Iceland goes on.

Funnily enough if you do fear for Lordship Lane then having 12-18 months of site closure and rebuilding would be the worst possible result.

[LondonMix]

Is that still Waitrose position?