Revised new - M&S planning application to replace Iceland..

[Huguenot]

There seems to be some confusion on this thread regarding the decision that people think they can influence?

It's not possible to select what store you want in this location, that's a commercial decision between the landlord and the lessee.

There can be influence on the planning decision to extend the building, remove parking spots, alter the time or regularity of deliveries, or increase residential accommodation.

Likewise, if there are problems with the carwash, that's a problem for the authorities and the carwash - not the landlord of the Iceland building. Existing regulations regarding the carwash should be enforced if it's impacting on the local community.

This thread seems to be using the planning laws as a proxy for what is actually a war between ageing conservatives (old people who don't want the world to change because their future is behind them) and youthful progressives (young people who would prefer to create a new future which reflects changing society rather than rot in the decaying past of a bygone impoverished era).

[northlondoner]

How's the weather in Singapore , Huge?

[showboat]

The weather in Singapore is about 30 Celsius and cloudy, with thunderstorms on the way for the next few days. Average, in other words.

But that has nothing to do with this thread, which seems to be dissolving into the usual EDF flame war.

[the-e-dealer]

Well , yes can you?

[northlondoner]

Thanks. Just checking. What's a flame war?

[Undisputedtruth]

If you read many of Hugo's threads then you get the idea.:))

[Huguenot]

It's like being ravaged by a dead sheep where UDT is involved.

[Undisputedtruth]

...and put up with unoriginal insults. :(

[Otta]

So anyway, can someone tell me

1. Are Iceland pulling out anyway, or would they stay if M&S don't get the go ahead.

2. How can someone voice an objection? (meaning older people who are probably not online)

3. Are there any petitions?

Sorry, I know this info is probably all in this thread already, but I really can't be doing with sifting through over 400 posts.

[first mate]

Otta,

the following is not much use to those not online bur those not online could write or ring planning at Souhtwark, quoting the reference below.

email: [email protected]

with your name,address and application no: 12/AP/1340

Do particularly consider how the development may impact on your everyday living if you live close to the proposed development, parking, noise, deliveries, etc Positive comments can also be submitted! It would be good if local businesses as well as residents respond to the consultation too.

[i*Rate]

Hi,

Not sure if anyone has covered this point above but I will feel very sorry for all the staff at Iceland when they announce the final closure date. They are a great, friendly helpful team of workers and the sad lost of their jobs will matched by the break up of their happy working relationship. Perhaps they may be able to get re-employed at M&S but it will all be very sad for them.

I know business is business but this is what happens at a human level.

Good luck to the building freeholder - may his increased wealth bring him happiness.

Cheers.

[Otta]

Indeed, some have been there over 20 years, and not good times to find yourself out of work!

First mate, many thanks for the info.

[Nicholas]

I agree with what some of Cora said regarding the Iceland store. Now although I don't shop in there myself, and I do feel it is an eyesore, if it were to continue with it's current lease it could certainly do with a make over! Although an M&S would be lovely for most people, I just feel that East Dulwich and particularly Lordship Lane is at it's maximum capacity for traffic and a new Marks and Spencer store would only add to this congestion as it is a more upmarket store and will attract an influx of new people. This has it's positives and negatives of course. As it is, on a Saturday (especially when the sun is shining), the Lane is gridlocked and all the side roads are rammed packed which could lead to the introduction of Permit Parking, or possibly parking meters.

[Undisputedtruth]

Not sure sure where you get the idea that m&s is an upmarket store, Nicholas. Basically it's just a rebadging of Iceland food with fancy packaging and marketing for the affluent Chavs.

[AlexC]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not sure sure where you get the idea that m&s is

> an upmarket store, Nicholas. Basically it's just a

> rebadging of Iceland food with fancy packaging and

> marketing for the affluent Chavs.

Yawn...

[i*Rate]

Nicolas,

I'm sorry that you feel Iceland is and eyesore, unfortunately there are many parts of ED that have'nt had the makeover to suit the 'New Wave' of affluent 30-something-year-olds. If you take a look at the shoppers there you will see the poorer residents of the area - some of whom have lived here for twenty to thirty years, like myself.

I do get fed up with the new arrivals here who assume that because they've paid bit money for their houses in this new chic area then they are entitled to criticise us lesser mortals on our way of life. I'd just like to point out that when I moved here over thirty years ago it was a very run down part of south London and only through hard work by myself and many other young people like me did we improve our homes and ultimately the general look of the streets. I was pleased when Blue Mountain Cafe opened and The Arterie but it took a long time before these came along and the area took off.

With respect.

[Otta]

Walk down LL and look above some of the shops. LL is all an eyesore, the buildings were never pretty.

[the-e-dealer]

Get the pitchforks and wicker torches out.

[*Bob*]

Is Iceland now deemed to be fulfilling some kind of valuable public service, like a library - or a GP? I thought it was a private company who (despite a few token boxes of fresh on the way in) makes most its millions selling well-marketed but low-quality convenience food to a country with an ever-expanding population of morbidly obese people on low incomes.

We're not exactly living in Knightsbridge yet. There are loads of places within spitting distance of Iceland where you can buy and make better food for less money and with minimal effort.

As somebody put so aptly several pages ago, Iceland is no friend to the poor. No more so than, say, Lambert & Butler - or White Lightning. At least there's some genuine enjoyment to be had from the latter two. If it were a Lidl, I'd agree.. but Iceland?.. It's just so dismally British.

[*Bob*]

Some typically obtuse posts from you over the weekend UDT. I don't remember anyone suggesting to date that Iceland 'spends as much' as M&S on marketing. Selecting random facts always was your strong point.. as ever, it's the interpretation that's always a problem - especially for someone with your particular condition. I suggest (if you want to take part in this sort of discussion) less time sitting around in flares listening to soul music, more time in the real world - if you know where it is.

So - to business.

Iceland is (virtually) all uk-based with frozen food accounting for most of its business. M&S sells food, clothing and homewares and around 1/3 of its stores aren't even in the uk. Are the two comparable like-for-like? Iceland employs somewhere over 20k people. M&S nearly 4 times the amount. Are the two comparable like-for like? M&S turnover is around 4x the turnover of Iceland. So the question is: how does Iceland's marketing spend both scale-up and stack-up against the (relative) areas of M&S's spend? Because unless you can grasp this, you might as well be comparing a wasp and a tennis racket.

Iceland does not, as you imagine, lean back in the safe knowledge that its products 'sell themselves', or that people wander in there just because of the nice big red sign. It spends many millions of pounds on getting people to their store. Going back a few years they were spending around 15m at luring people in there. And I'm sure even you can agree, 15m is 'quite a lot' of money. Its successful campaigns (such as the Kerry K one, before she got ditched for beaking chang) made a huge difference to the fortunes of the chain.

[Penguin68]

Stores judge particular outlets' attractiveness/ performance based on such measurements as footfall and turnover/ profit per square metre. Future attractiveness of locations is also based on cachment in relation to target market. If Iceland is going to give up its store on Lordship Lane (no firm proof of this as yet, I would have thought, but the planning application is suggestive) then it will be using the LL store's metrics to make its decision and in addition it will be taking account of forecast demographic change - based both on economic factors (broadly the A;B;CI,C2:D,E breaks, but things are nowadays much more sophisticated) together with age/ cultural group profiles. As/ if the cachment drifts from the target customer profile, so will it become less attractive.

At a guess (I have no idea) Iceland's target market is older and poorer (and compared with say Waitrose or M&S- psychographically probably less aspirational). Its product range suggests a culturally traditional English target customer group - with little appeal to cultural diversity. The advertising use of Kerry Katona was probably to move the target age towards the younger end, but I am not sure that worked. ED has become younger, more culturally mixed, richer and more apirational over the last 10-15 years (I've been here for close to a quarter of a century to watch these changes). That demographic shift is unlikely to be appealing to Iceland with its current target strategies.

That doesn't mean that it has no target market left - it clearly still does, the shop isn't empty - but it may mean that it expects that target market to be uneconomic for it in LL over a planning future.

If Iceland does decide to give up its lease in LL then it will do so for good economic reasons - and I suspect that an increase in rental will not in itself be a deciding factor.

If it only moved when its last customer had died/ moved away, it would be being incredibly stupid - it needs to get out when it is still viable (but when it is clear the writing is on the wall for future viability).

I also hope that the staff there find re-employment with any new store locally, if that is what they want.

[Jeremy]

Otta Wrote:

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> Are there any petitions?

Who would the petition be directed at, and what could it acheive? If the landlord wants to revamp the premises and lease to another retailer at a higher rent, isn't that his business?

[Chillaxed]

I may be wrong, but didn't I read somewhere that ED residents petitioned against Iceland moving to LL back in the day?

[the-e-dealer]

You could organise a petition against the Application. Listing Valid planning points such as

We Object to the Planning Application No......

on the Following grounds

1. Traffic Generation - It is a larger shop which attract more vehicles to an already busy Street.

2. Parking. The Application reduces the available parking in Lordship Lane.

3. Over development (might get away with this) Building will over look adjoining residential properties and reduce amenity space.

4. Overcrowding - Residential properties are too small and don't comply with minimum space and amenity space standards (check this!)

You need to go through current Planning Policies to find any other salient points.

You cant put 5 I dont like M&s or Ice land are cheaper. If only we could say There are too many or a particular type of restaurant or shop.

[Penguin68]

Can we have a reality check here please - sure you can block (or try to block) the planning application - as citizens that's exactly your right, but if Iceland has decided, as an economic decision, to give up its lease you have no rights to force it to stay - your 'unintended consequences' might be that Iceland goes (because that's what it has decided to do anyway) and the site remains empty and unloved because you have blocked the store that was prepared to move in - remembering that Iceland currently has no storgae space, so the location as it is currently configured and sized is not at all desirable.

What do you want, an M&S in a useable store size, or an empty boarded-up location (charity shop perhaps, at best)?

As I have said, if Iceland wants to stay in LL because it's the right location for it, it will; if it doesn't, something will take its place (or rather, possibly, nothing - in the retail line, anyhow).

You can stop M&S moving in (given a strong enough argument) you can't force Iceland to stay.

And perhaps if local councillors want to weigh-in here, they also need to think what 'no Iceland, no M&S' will do to LL. 'Cos that's a real possibility.