Revised new - M&S planning application to replace Iceland..

[Gidget]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> They can Gidget, but M&S can make money off of

> them in ED so why wouldn't M&S want to do that and

> why don't they have the right to shop for what

> they want locally? This is business and

> consumers, nothing else.

"the right to shop for what they want locally?" - which is what - any kind of produce M&S produces? who is they?

I want a WholeFoods here, and a Trader Joe's store - so do I have a right to those?

[DulwichFox]

We all shop at M&S at some time.. I did this morning.

But then I read this...

Gap, Next and M&S in new sweatshop scandal

Indian workers are paid just 25p an hour and forced to work overtime in factories used by some of Britain's best-known high street stores..

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/8/7/1281195791150/Slave-labour-in-India-006.jpg

Related Articl

Perhaps it is time we gave this a bit more thought before we allow M&S to set up shop in E.D.

What about that Mr J. Barber

Fox

[LondonMix]

If enough consumers want to shop at a store (m&s, wholefoods etc) and that store decides to competitively bid for space on LL, thEn it has a right to open, and they the consumers have a right to shop there. Simple, whatever the store. You act like M&S and those who want to shop there aren't entitled to do business in the local area!

[Michael Palaeologus]

Will people actually but any more from M&S, or will they spend their normal M&S moneys locally? Rather than at London Bridge or Walworth Road.

A big advantage is that it would extend the upgrading of Lordship Lane in a southerly direction, increasing footfall to that part of the Lane. Smiths, Boots, Starbucks, who knows where it could end?

I realise that there will now commence much liberal breast beating. I am sure this will be cathartic.

[tallulah71]

Trader Joe's...yes please!

[LondonMix]

I might increase overall business for M&S despite the fact people already shop for their stuff at certain stations. It's like Starbucks' business model. After a store is filled beyond a certain point, people, even if they want to shop there, won't go in. You can open another one that theoretically is within competing distance of the original store and actually increase trade. At the height of their success, I could stand on certain street corners in NY and see 4 Starbucks on each corner, each full to capacity. We'll see if M&S have got it right!

[AlexC]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> If enough consumers want to shop at a store (m&s,

> wholefoods etc) and that store decides to

> competitively bid for space on LL, thEn it has a

> right to open, and they the consumers have a right

> to shop there. Simple, whatever the store. You

> act like M&S and those who want to shop there

> aren't entitled to do business in the local area!

That just about sums it up...so Gidget, you can now stop flogging your dead horse.

[Alan Medic]

AlexC Wrote:

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> Alan Medic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > AlexC Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I'm all for it - it replaces a shop I've

> never

> > set

> > > foot in, with one I would. I'd prefer a

> > Waitrose,

> > > but an M&S would be fine too. I'm just after

> > > somewhere that does some good quality

> > convenience

> > > food, which has a decent range. I think it

> > would

> > > compliment the Lane nicely.

> >

> > Perhaps you would be more qualified to make

> > comments like this if had set foot in Iceland.

>

> Sorry Alan, didn't realise I wasn't allowed to

> have an opinion. I've not set foot in this Iceland

> branch, I have set foot in another branch in the

> past. Many years ago. It's not the sort of place I

> would personally choose to shop in - I'd rather

> have an M&S or a Waitrose. That's my personal

> opinion, but sorry. I forgot I wasn't allowed to

> have one. Numpty...

You are just trying to defend an indefensible position that you put yourself in, with a silly comment. Now you say you were once in another branch. You didn't say that originally. It just came across to me as being extremely snotty.

[AlexC]

So, let me get this straight Alan. My own opinion, regardless of whether I've been into an Iceland before or not, is an indefensible position? Did I condemn people who shop in Iceland, or make some snotty comment about it? No. I just said I'd prefer for Iceland to be something else, because it's not a shop I use. I have no problem with the shop, or people who do like to shop there.

Jeez....some people are seriously touchy around this subject eh?

[Gidget]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If enough consumers want to shop at a store (m&s,

> wholefoods etc) and that store decides to

> competitively bid for space on LL, thEn it has a

> right to open, and they the consumers have a right

> to shop there. Simple, whatever the store. You

> act like M&S and those who want to shop there

> aren't entitled to do business in the local area!

Nowhere did I say M&S don't have the 'right' to open on LL. I am pointing out drawback to losing the carpark, asking why people feel the need to have an M&S and querying why Iceland is perceived by many to be a bad store. Just because a company has money to pay for an expensive lease doesn't mean it benefits the whole community.

I do not live round the corner from Iceland so the loss of the carpark will not affect me on a daily basis - either due to noise or extra cars on the streets. It is a great and unusual amenity to have in the area though.

[Renata Hamvas]

Please comment on the consultation, if you want your opinion taken into consideration in the planning decision process.

Renata

[Alan Medic]

AlexC Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So, let me get this straight Alan. My own opinion,

> regardless of whether I've been into an Iceland

> before or not, is an indefensible position? Did I

> condemn people who shop in Iceland, or make some

> snotty comment about it? No. I just said I'd

> prefer for Iceland to be something else, because

> it's not a shop I use. I have no problem with the

> shop, or people who do like to shop there.

>

> Jeez....some people are seriously touchy around

> this subject eh?

Yeah, you are. You made a comment about Iceland without ever having set foot in the place. I don't care what place that was but if you weren't there how can you comment on it. Then you defend your comment by saying you were in another one.

Maybe you should have that the first time and it wouldn't have sounded so snotty.

[motorbird83]

dd

[Undisputedtruth]

The Hooray Henries will need somewhere to park their four by fours. Increase air and noise pollution for the neighbours.

Also, a thriving area needs a wider mix of people for a more dynamic neighbourhood. Gentrification only leads to a sterile environment.

[AlexC]

Alan, so you say you don't care what the place is...if I've not been in I can't comment. So if it was a Fortnum and Masons there, and I'd said I'd never set foot in the place, would that still be a snooty comment? Or would the chip have left your shoulder?

I have no comments to defend. I said I've never set foot in the place. It's true. I never have. I have been in another branch about 10 years ago but so what? I didn't mention that to defend my comments, as I had nothing to defend. I'm not passing judgement on the place. I just said I'd prefer it if it was a shop that I would use. If you want to twist my comments into some kind of class war bs, feel free.

[Jeremy]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Indian workers are paid just 25p an hour and

> forced to work overtime in factories used by some

> of Britain's best-known high street stores..

It's a low wage for sure - but well above the (Indian) government-defined poverty threshold of 0.6 USD (~40p) a day.

[LondonMix]

You didn't mention the car park in your question to me regarding why people who like M&S can't shop at the train station... I was simply responding, why should they have to when the store wants to open locally.

From your other questions it sounds like you think people want an M&S simply because they believe it will make ED more upmarket and they don't like Iceland because they think its a down market chain. That's probably true of some people, which maybe makes them a bit snobby. Others probably genuinely like M&S and buy their goods already. Either way, its business not social policy. If you are annoyed by gentrification, you should lobby to have more social housing in ED, which would guarantee a more balanced economic mix and ensure that there was a large enough "less-affluent" population to ensure more diversity in shops in the area. But this probably goes far beyond what you really want, right?

The impact of losing the car parking spaces should be considered carefully as part of the planning application but given that several people have reported back to the forum that they have not seen the parking full (neither during the week nor on the weekend), the impact of losing what is a nominal amount of spaces shouldn't be overstated. Also, those who seem to be claiming people will be driving for miles to buy convenience food to load into their cars seem to be misunderstanding the concept of the store. Most people just pop into an M&S Simply Food on a night when they want something more interesting than what they could throw together in 10 min. It's really not grocery shopping and driving out of your way for it kind of defeats the point of it being convenient, last minute fare. It's like suggesting lots of people would drive to the corner store for milk and a frozen pizza. M&S simply food is really the equivalent just substitute frozen pizza with duck in madeira sauce...

For me the flats are the biggest concern but then again, most people I know who live in flats don't own a car but that's just my own personal experience, so I could be very wrong on that.

Gidget Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > If enough consumers want to shop at a store

> (m&s,

> > wholefoods etc) and that store decides to

> > competitively bid for space on LL, thEn it has

> a

> > right to open, and they the consumers have a

> right

> > to shop there. Simple, whatever the store.

> You

> > act like M&S and those who want to shop there

> > aren't entitled to do business in the local

> area!

>

> Nowhere did I say M&S don't have the 'right' to

> open on LL. I am pointing out drawback to losing

> the carpark, asking why people feel the need to

> have an M&S and querying why Iceland is perceived

> by many to be a bad store. Just because a company

> has money to pay for an expensive lease doesn't

> mean it benefits the whole community.

>

> I do not live round the corner from Iceland so the

> loss of the carpark will not affect me on a daily

> basis - either due to noise or extra cars on the

> streets. It is a great and unusual amenity to

> have in the area though.

[treehugger]

I have lived off LL since 1991 (Melbourne Grove and Barry road) and never knew that there was a car park behind Iceland. I'm glad I didn't know as I might have been tempted to drive. I always walk (particularly when the children were small) and now cycle as I don't think I would ever find a parking place - and anyway how lazy would that be?

I would not buy a flat if I had a car and there was no parking, I would buy a flat somewhere else. If I bought a flat on LL, I would use a zipcar, specially if I was a 20/30 childless someone, to whom these flats are presumably going to be targetted at.

I have been in Iceland quite a few times over the years, often because some say it's great. I am sure they stock cheap veg, but when I want that I cycle over to Rye lane (fresh and cheap - can't be beat). Everything else looks like cheap, processed food. I maybe wrong, but that's what I saw.

I would shop in M&S on an occasional basis if I can't be bothered to cook (and I do cook from scratch nearly every night) and want a good quality convenience food. It's not because I think it makes me posh or whatever, I just think they have a good product. And I do remember that M&S were just about the only corporate who went back into Brixton after the 1980 riots - and I don't think they were being cynical when they did that. That stayed with me.

[Alan Medic]

Edited due to losing the will to continue this discussion.

[HelBel65]

> Crouch End shopping area is a bigger area than

> East Dulwich.

Not true. Waitrose, Tesco Metro, Budgens and M+S Food together with several long established and much loved independents are all within a 2 or 3 minute walk of the Clocktower - they all seem to be thriving. That's the point. The only independent to close in Crouch End recently was, sadly, the bookshop and that can hardly be blamed on the supermarkets...

I said earlier on this thread - once M+S is here, Waitrose won't be far behind and I stick by that. Having just moved here from Crouch End, I will be quite happy!

[Gimme]

Gidget wrote "East Finchley fought plans to have a Waitrose located there and were successful."

OMG - why would they do such a thing??? Are they mad???

[KalamityKel]

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

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> Please comment on the consultation, if you want

> your opinion taken into consideration in the

> planning decision process.

> Renata

Exactly!

How many of you who are bleeting on about how wonder a M&S will or will not be have actually taken the time to LOOK at the proposed plans?

It's not just about who is proposing to move in but the changes to the building - including the residential spaces above the establishment - that will have an impact on the surrounding areas.

Stick to the case in hand. If you want to squabble about your shopping lists do it elsewhere!

Sheesh!

[first mate]

London Mix said

"The impact of losing the car parking spaces should be considered carefully as part of the planning application but given that several people have reported back to the forum that they have not seen the parking full (neither during the week nor on the weekend), the impact of losing what is a nominal amount of spaces shouldn't be overstated. Also, those who seem to be claiming people will be driving for miles to buy convenience food to load into their cars seem to be misunderstanding the concept of the store".

LM: The main issues for those living close by are:

the loss of all parking space

the addition of 8 residents who will need to park

more car wash clients parking out on street (the car wash also likes to mend cars on street)

An increase in deliveries to proposed new shop (as detailed in plans) inlcuding very early in morning. There will be no change in size of articulated lorries which have very loud parking and reversing sensors (BEEP' BEEP, BEEP- all at 5am).

The use of these lorries has long been a bone of contention between residents and Iceland. Resident property and cars have all been damaged by the lorries. Bollards that protect the sides of the current entrance to Iceland car park are clearly damaged. The plans propose to make this overall space smaller. That is more lorries delivering and moving around in a much smaller space.

The massive delivery vehicles, of which it is proposed there will be more throughout the day, frequently block the street. The street is also blocked by car wash clients.

More residents to the street but a big reduction in parking- and the application says it is eco-friendly.

On top of all that, yes, M&S/Waitrose/any shop that attracts more customers than Iceland, may also want to park.

[gedwina]

Be careful of what you wish for - you might get a tesco. They are much more aggressive when it comes to planning etc

[motorbird83]

Sorry, first mate, I don't understand your point on the car wash-- not being a wise-ass-- can you explain a bit more?

I can sympathise with your concerns on the time of deliveries but this can be objected to separately, no?

We have to agree to disagree that people will drive to M&S Simply Food. In fact, people are more likely to drive to Iceland as bulk shopping there is more standard. If people aren't generally using all the spaces right now, the pressure created by removing them can't be that severe.

The flats is the toughest bit for me. I don't know whether I should oppose it or not. It might put pressure on parking but London desperately needs more housing so in general I am in favour of housing development. Its balancing priorities...

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> London Mix said

> "The impact of losing the car parking spaces

> should be considered carefully as part of the

> planning application but given that several people

> have reported back to the forum that they have not

> seen the parking full (neither during the week nor

> on the weekend), the impact of losing what is a

> nominal amount of spaces shouldn't be overstated.

> Also, those who seem to be claiming people will be

> driving for miles to buy convenience food to load

> into their cars seem to be misunderstanding the

> concept of the store".

>

> LM: The main issues for those living close by

> are:

>

> the loss of all parking space

>

> the addition of 8 residents who will need to park

>

> more car wash clients parking out on street (the

> car wash also likes to mend cars on street)

>

> An increase in deliveries to proposed new shop (as

> detailed in plans) inlcuding very early in

> morning. There will be no change in size of

> articulated lorries which have very loud parking

> and reversing sensors (BEEP' BEEP, BEEP- all at

> 5am).

>

> The use of these lorries has long been a bone of

> contention between residents and Iceland. Resident

> property and cars have all been damaged by the

> lorries. Bollards that protect the sides of the

> current entrance to Iceland car park are clearly

> damaged. The plans propose to make this overall

> space smaller. That is more lorries delivering and

> moving around in a much smaller space.

>

> The massive delivery vehicles, of which it is

> proposed there will be more throughout the day,

> frequently block the street. The street is also

> blocked by car wash clients.

>

> More residents to the street but a big reduction

> in parking- and the application says it is

> eco-friendly.

>

> On top of all that, yes, M&S/Waitrose/any shop

> that attracts more customers than Iceland, may

> also want to park.