Black cabs

[edcam]

They are obliged to take you within 12 miles or a distance of one hour. Get their number and report them.

[Gaynor Hill]

Rumbero Wrote:

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> Gaynor Hill Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I was in the back of cab when I asked to be

> taken

> > to Dulwich, he said I ain't taking you there

> get

> > out

> > I just got out shocked and no had not been

> > drinking

>

> Quite sure you haven't been drinking!? That's the

> second time you've made this claim since starting

> the thread two days ago. You don't like black

> cabs. We get it.

> Regarding some of the other posts, is there any

> actual evidence that black cab drivers are any

> more 'racist' than any other section of society or

> is that simply lazy stereotyping? Admittedly I am

> not a frequent customer (I try and walk, cycle or

> take public transport if possible) but have never

> come across this. In fact the last cab driver who

> drove me (yes, all the way to East Dulwich) seemed

> to be some sort of advocate for the Cuban

> Revolution and kept banging on about Fidel Castro

> and Karl Marx. He was wearing a jacket and tie

> (make of that what you will).

> And all this 'south of the river' stuff:

> presumably the ones Wimpole knows who 'sold up and

> live in Beckenham and Orpington way' don't object

> to crossing the Thames from time to time.

> I even have a theory for seenbeen, who was

> concerned earlier about the number of black cabs

> on Crystal Palace Road: maybe they're the

> proverbial 'golf jumper-wearing' ones who play at

> Aquarius (while 'fiddling their taxes' of

> course).

> Wimpole is spot on about the new Zero Emission

> Capable (ZEC) cabs though. Definitely the way

> forward but at ?60,000 or so they are a

> significant investment for cab drivers.

It's the first time it's happened to me hence I was shocked why assume I do not like them, just because I wanted to know if it's happened to others

[Rumbero]

Fair enough. If that's the case I apologise for jumping to conclusions. There's always going to be one rotten apple in the barrel. Hopefully you'll have better experiences in the future.

[jimlad48]

Took a black cab from Waterloo to Camberwell last week. Driver started doing a very odd route, and changed when I queried it. At end of journey he intentionally went down a road forcing the cab to do 3 sides of a square to get to its final destination.

When I pointed this out he got extremely grumpy and told me that it was doing that which made accepting the fare worthwhile!

[Sally Eva]

TfL license taxis in London https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/. You could contact them and establish the acceptability of padding the fare like this.

[Penguin68]

Driver started doing a very odd route

That can be very common with Ubers - they use Waze quite a lot, which tracks routes with the least congestion - which are often longer (in miles) and more circuitous but generally quicker in lapsed time to get to your destination. Of course, as most Uber drivers don't know where they are going (relying on Sat Nav) they are not making sneaky diversions to bump up the fare. The Knowledge has its good, and bad, points!

[Earl Aelfheah]

I am not a fan of black cabs generally. Have had to put up with racist 'banter' from cabbies, been refused going south of the river and have often witnessed their deliberate attempts to intimidate cyclists. I know a lot of cabbies are decent, hard working and professional, but as a highly regulated and not inexpensive service, you shouldn't have these sorts of behaviours at all. They are a powerful lobby and so have been pandered to by successive majors (being excluded from the same ULEZ standards as everyone else for example).

The truth is that impressive as it may be to memorise every street in London, this is no longer a relevant skill. And what is left (driving a car) is something that many people can do. It shouldn't be such a closed shop / monopoly imo.

[TheCat]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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>

> The truth is that impressive as it may be to

> memorise every street in London, this is no longer

> a relevant skill.

I totally get what you're saying. But for me I still generally prefer a driver who can improvise when needed (and use the bus lanes). I know Waze has been mentioned above - but I still find that most Uber drivers will just sit in traffic for ever and ever amen if thats the way the sat nav is telling them. So I still think there is a market for people with the knowledge - especially when compared to the lottery of an uber driver, who may have been driving in london for 2 days and genuinely have no idea - I prefer the consistency that ordering a black cab brings (in general, there are always exceptions). Althoug its fair to say that this market (i.e. people like me me) is generally shrinking.

[Penguin68]

But for me I still generally prefer a driver who can improvise when needed (and use the bus lanes).

That's certainly true for Central London, where any unexpected road blockage can entirely stump Sat Nav dependent Uber drivers but Black Cabbies do know the alternative routes to get round blocks. If you want to get to a main line station in Central London, Black Cabs are the go-to choice (even where they are more expensive). But around us in Dulwich even if the Black Cabbie has done the local knowledge they're still not that much more savvy than Ubers with the right Sat Nav. And if you're going from, e.g. Kings Cross to Dulwich then the ?15 - ?20 (often) difference in fares (if the Black Cab will even go Sarf) is a deal breaker in my view.

[Listen up]

In spite of Uber?s numerous shortcomings, as a south Londoner I will not shed a tear on the black cabbies demise. Waiting for up to half hour in all weathers, to be told I?m not going that way, back-breakingly hard suspension, and paying through the nose for the privilege - not at all where we should be in 2019

[Rumbero]

Strikes me that the Knowledge isn't just a memory test of London streets. The two or three years it takes to complete is a character test as much as anything else and demonstrates commitment to a career, whereas minicab-driving (driver-partnering, I believe, in slightly Orwellian ?berspeak) is of a more transient nature and probably appeals to those whose employment opportunities are limited. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but if the barriers between licensed taxis and private hire continue to be eroded (Uber have effectively been allowed to 'ply for hire', albeit electronically) then the race to the bottom will have been won.

If the Knowledge is sacrificed on the altar of de-regulation and cheapness is the only criteria (we'd better get used to that post-Brexit) then I, for one, think that'll be a sad day.

Be careful what you wish for.

[fishbiscuits]

Rumbero Wrote:

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> The two or three years it takes to complete is a character test as much as

> anything else and demonstrates commitment to a career

I'm not quite sure why having drivers committed to a career as a cab driver is necessarily a good thing.

And bear in mind, it's only a matter of time before that particular job simply doesn't exist any more.

[Rumbero]

Presumably you're less likely to do anything to jeopardise your livelihood if you've made that sort of investment. And I suppose it's only a matter of time before any job doesn't exist anymore.

[JohnL]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

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> Rumbero Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The two or three years it takes to complete is a

> character test as much as

> > anything else and demonstrates commitment to a

> career

>

> I'm not quite sure why having drivers committed to

> a career as a cab driver is necessarily a good

> thing.

>

> And bear in mind, it's only a matter of time

> before that particular job simply doesn't exist

> any more.

Ubers entire business plan involves driverless cars.

https://qz.com/1599134/uber-secures-much-needed-1-billion-investment-for-self-driving-cars-unit/

[Rumbero]

JohnL Wrote:

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>

> Ubers entire business plan involves driverless

> cars.

I wonder if Uber's business plan involves actually making a profit?

[snowy]

It does, but it's based on killing the existing market of private hire and black cabs and then increasing their fares once that's done and they have a monopoly.

[Rumbero]

snowy Wrote:

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> It does, but it's based on killing the existing

> market of private hire and black cabs and then

> increasing their fares once that's done and they

> have a monopoly.

Indeed. Monopolies, of course, being something that rahrahrah ("not a fan of black cabs generally") argued against earlier.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The black cabs have had a monopoly for ages. Uber should not be allowed to replace it with another one, but that?s not a defence of black cabs.

[Rumbero]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> The black cabs have had a monopoly for ages. Uber

> should not be allowed to replace it with another

> one, but that?s not a defence of black cabs.

A 'monopoly' on what exactly? The exclusive right to 'ply for hire' (ie respond to an immediate hail from a member of the public')? There is no bar to this 'monopoly' (other than certain types of criminal conviction). Anyone with the desire and dedication to complete The Knowledge of London exam is free to do so (even Uber drivers!)

What would you have instead? Any old Tom, Dick or Harry roaming the streets offering rides for a bit of beer money?

You need to think it through and come up with a better alternative - one that both protects the public (including the disabled) and offers a decent living to those providing the service (without having to compromise safety by working all the hours God sends). I can't immediately think of a better way of achieving this but am willing to be persuaded.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I think the use of cab hailing apps such as Uber are the better alternative - I thought I had been clear. As impressive as learning every street off by heart is, it's an obsolete skill. Some black cab drivers have done nothing to ingratiate themselves in the heart of the general public. Only this morning I saw a cabbie deliberately cut across the path of a cyclist.

[micromacromonkey]

Despite my casually discriminatory attitude towards cabbies, I must say that the majority I actually talk to seem to be OK. I have a couple of times in the last year had to flag one down as I had a puncture and was late for a meeting, and had to shove the bike in the back. Always seemed pretty reasonable. I wonder how many cabbies actually agree with the LTDA's policy on bike lanes and whatever else they like to pontificate on? A lot of people don't necessarily think that their union has their best interests at heart (e.g. Len McCluskey and associated arseholes).

[Rumbero]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I think the use of cab hailing apps such as Uber

> are the better alternative - I thought I had been

> clear.

I'm still not entirely clear, I'm afraid. Are you saying you'd be happy for someone who's simply coughed up ?300 to TfL and been 'licensed' in a matter of weeks to respond to any immediate hail (app, street or rank) in a one-tier system?

Regarding micromacromonkeys comment; there doesn't seem to be one organisation that speaks for the whole cab trade. The LTDA aren't militant enough for some of them (eg the London Cab Drivers Club) although I believe the United Trade Action Group (UTAG) has recently formed (I know, we're straying into People's Front of Judea and Judean People's Front territory here).

The bike lanes seem to serve a purpose for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening but others might say that the unintended consequence (or intended, maybe) of near total gridlock for the rest of the day is too high a price.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Apps such as Uber are in effect 'hailing' service. The idea of having thousands of diesel cars driving around the streets waiting to be waved down is again, an anachronism. A smart phone is a much more efficient way of hailing a cab, which will usually arrive in a few minutes.

A business model based on cab drivers memorising every possible route and driving around waiting to be flagged down, is just crazy in this age of smart phones.

[Penguin68]

There is now an electronic hailing ap for black cabs as well as Ubers. But of course you pay black cab prices. Most black cabs (all?) now have card payment options in-cab - that at least makes them more user friendly than when cash was the only option. And less of a muggers target. It is still very convenient to be able to get a cab either on-street or from a rank without having to book, at times; black cabs (and their drivers, but there is always John Worboys to remember) are generally better regulated than mini-cabs (which is what Ubers are). And 'the Knowledge' is of real value when there are street disruptions which sat nav aps can't pick-up on - even Waze isn't that sensitive to sudden road closures. As a customer there is room for both, but economically I'm not so sure.

[Rumbero]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Apps such as Uber are in effect 'hailing' service.

> The idea of having thousands of diesel cars

> driving around the streets waiting to be waved

> down is again, an anachronism. A smart phone is a

> much more efficient way of hailing a cab, which

> will usually arrive in a few minutes.

>

> A business model based on cab drivers memorising

> every possible route and driving around waiting to

> be flagged down, is just crazy in this age of

> smart phones.

No one is disputing the efficiency of 'hailing' a minicab via a smartphone, just the legality (to repeat, black cabs can be hailed in this way too, of course, if anyone so desires). There's a clear case for the reform of taxi and private hire legislation to properly define 'plying for hire' and the nature of a 'meter', for example, in the digital age (don't hold your breath).

Again, though, you haven't addressed the question of the suitability of individuals wishing to provide this sort of 'on-demand' service. I'm still waiting for a better alternative to The Knowledge.

As for 'thousands of diesel cars driving round the streets', most black cabs tend to operate (legally) from ranks. Some might operate exclusively from the streets, I suppose, but I would have thought the operating costs (fuel consumption, wear and tear etc) would naturally mitigate against this.

And does anyone not think that ride-hailing minicabs don't drive around aimlessly waiting for their 'pings' or homing-in on the 'surge' areas ('dynamic pricing' in Uberspeak) looking for their quadruple fares?

According to the TfL website there are currently in excess of 90,000 Private Hire vehicle licences and about 19,000 taxi vehicle licences, by the way.