attack near ED station (Thursday 29th March 2012)

[Guest]

dulwichgirl2 Wrote:

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> Single or vulnerable people could ask people

> leaving the station to walk along together...

> Unfortunately on relfection it would lead to the

> arrest of the person asking I fear....

I think it's a good idea - I've done that kind of thing before now myself.

I'd also encourage Southwark to put a lot more bike stands outside the station, with good lighting and CCTV focused on them. I feel much safer cycling home from the station than walking, even if it's only a few minutes.

[Loz]

benmorg Wrote:

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> The camera might not catch the mugger's face but would certainly help with building a physical

> description. Not sure what you mean by "highlights". Any film of the mugger hanging

> around or walking would potentially be useful. I doubt whether a camera at the station would film

> the crime as the mugger in question follows victims onto back streets before trying to rob

> them.

>

> Constant monitoring of the feed is impractical, but a 24 hour digital recording with time stamp

> would allow police to see victims being followed from the station after the crime had been

> reported. The presence of cameras might also act as a deterrent.

So, CCTV has so far not captured the actual mugging. So how many people need to be mugged to build up this picture to see who was acting suspiciously? And hope it's only one person. Who doesn't change their clothes much. Who probably won't be charged anyway as the evidence would be up the rigours of a court.

As for the cameras acting as a deterrent, well most studies disprove this.

CCTV is just like a child's security blanket. It doesn't make a place any safer... but I suppose it does have a placebo effect in making people think they are safer. Well, before they get mugged anyway.

And the worst thing about CCTV? CCTV is no substitute for actual policing, but it is used for just that. ED station needs more policing. More CCTV is worse than useless.

[Chippy Minton]

Just an idea, but perhaps CCTV cameras could be positioned so they record the muggings and the footage could therefore assist the police?

[Loz]

Solve that one and you'd be a rich man, Chippy.

[benmorg]

Loz Wrote:

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> So, CCTV has so far not captured the actual

> mugging. So how many people need to be mugged to

> build up this picture to see who was acting

> suspiciously? And hope it's only one person. Who

> doesn't change their clothes much. Who probably

> won't be charged anyway as the evidence would be

> up the rigours of a court.

You forget that the victim would often be able to identify the suspect caught on camera. The police would then have both a description and a picture. Better than just a description. They might even recognise a known trouble-maker. 24 hour police presence is impossible, but 24 hour cameras are easy to organise and far cheaper.

[JohnL]

is it just me that sees the law getting much more strict

in the last few years.

Be careful muggers we might be losing a little bit in 'due process'

but your ability to get away with it is not what you may think.

Loz Wrote:

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> Because otherwise it doesn't protect, it just

> allows you to watch the 'highlights' afterwards of

> an unrecognisable person wearing a hoodie mugging

> someone. Muggers might be complete barstewards,

> but they're generally not stupid.

[Jose]

This is awful

A similar thing happened to my fiancee last month - followed from outside ED Station through the park to Sainsbury's where she was grabbed from behind & wrestled onto the floor. She was attacked from behind for her phone and the guy didn't say much, but the most alarming thing was that it all happened at 2 pm on a busy Saturday afternoon in broad daylight.

According to some witnesses, they guy had been walking up & down the parade of shops waiting for easy victims to emerge from the station to then follow until they have an opportunity. In the case, the guy ran off towards the estate on DKH.

The impacts of these attacks always goes much deeper than bumps, bruises and stolen blackberries and I'd really welcome more police deployments around the station or anything else that genuinely helps protect

[cab]

So sorry this happened to you. Exactly the same thing happened to me a year ago - I was followed down Melbourne Grove and then attacked and mugged on my front door step as I was putting the keys in. Lost my bag and lots of confidence!! It comes back, don't worry, you will feel normal and safe again. I assumed they didn't find the person who did this to me but the police were nice all the same.

[James Barber]

Criminals would just wait outside the CCTV camera area. CCTV is not a magic bullet or panacea.

At the Elephant&Castle crime has been reported as higher where CCTV present. Lots of thoughts why.

[DJKillaQueen]

About four months ago I reported a guy to two police officers in Sainsburrys that I had watched outside the station casing women as they emerged, before (I think) he suspected I was standing at the bus stop too long and went into the park next to sainsburrys. I followed him and saw him riding up and down (he was on a bicycle) along the fence of the childrens play area looking at buggies and bags. I had no doubt he was looking to rob someone.

All it would take would be a period of covert surveilllance by the police to catch these muggers. The police also have mobile cctv equipment they can install and use too.

[mynamehere]

What happened in NYC is a model for how to stop crime waves and the handful of people driving them each time they cycle through as one is now affecting us locally: slam people with authority on to the streets

NYC:

If you compare New York in 2011 to New York in 1990, it seems hard to believe that it?s the same city. In the 1970s, ?80s and early ?90s, New York was viewed as one of the world?s most dangerous metropolises ? a cesspool of violence and danger depicted in gritty films like ?The Warriors? and ?Escape From New York.? Friends who lived here during that time talk of being terrified to use the subway, of being mugged outside their apartments, and an overwhelming tide of junkies. Thirty-one one of every 100,000 New Yorkers were murdered each year, and 3,668 were victims of larceny.

Today, in an astonishing twist, New York is one of the safest cities in the country. Its current homicide rate is 18 percent of its 1990 total ? its auto theft rate is 6 percent. The drop exceeded the wildest dreams of crime experts of the 1990s, and it?s a testament to this transformation that New Yorkers now seem more likely to complain about the city?s dullness than about its criminality.

In his fascinating new book, ?The City that Became Safe,? Franklin Zimring, a professor of law and chairman of the Criminal Justice Research Program at the University of California at Berkeley, looks at the real reasons behind that change ? and his conclusions might surprise you. Contrary to popular belief, Giuliani?s ?zero tolerance? bluster had little to do with it. Instead, it was a combination of strategic policing and harm reduction by the New York Police Department. Police targeted open-air drug markets, and went after guns, while leaving drug users largely alone. The implications of the strategy could make us revise not only the way we think about crime, but the way we think about our prison system and even human nature.

[benmorg]

James Barber Wrote:

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> Criminals would just wait outside the CCTV camera

> area. CCTV is not a magic bullet or panacea.

Sure they would do that if the CCTV was obvious, but I don't see why police couldn't use concealed cameras in order to catch people rather than deter them.

[benmorg]

mynamehere Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What happened in NYC is a model for how to stop

> crime waves and the handful of people driving them

> each time they cycle through as one is now

> affecting us locally: slam people with authority

> on to the streets

>

> NYC:

>

> If you compare New York in 2011 to New York in

> 1990, it seems hard to believe that it?s the same

> city. In the 1970s, ?80s and early ?90s, New York

> was viewed as one of the world?s most dangerous

> metropolises ? a cesspool of violence and danger

> depicted in gritty films like ?The Warriors? and

> ?Escape From New York.? Friends who lived here

> during that time talk of being terrified to use

> the subway, of being mugged outside their

> apartments, and an overwhelming tide of junkies.

> Thirty-one one of every 100,000 New Yorkers were

> murdered each year, and 3,668 were victims of

> larceny.

>

> Today, in an astonishing twist, New York is one of

> the safest cities in the country. Its current

> homicide rate is 18 percent of its 1990 total ?

> its auto theft rate is 6 percent. The drop

> exceeded the wildest dreams of crime experts of

> the 1990s, and it?s a testament to this

> transformation that New Yorkers now seem more

> likely to complain about the city?s dullness than

> about its criminality.

>

> In his fascinating new book, ?The City that Became

> Safe,? Franklin Zimring, a professor of law and

> chairman of the Criminal Justice Research Program

> at the University of California at Berkeley, looks

> at the real reasons behind that change ? and his

> conclusions might surprise you. Contrary to

> popular belief, Giuliani?s ?zero tolerance?

> bluster had little to do with it. Instead, it was

> a combination of strategic policing and harm

> reduction by the New York Police Department.

> Police targeted open-air drug markets, and went

> after guns, while leaving drug users largely

> alone. The implications of the strategy could make

> us revise not only the way we think about crime,

> but the way we think about our prison system and

> even human nature.

Another theory is that the legalization of abortion in the 1970s caused a significant fall in the crime rate about 18 years later, since many of the criminals-to-be were never born. The economist who came up with this idea popularized it in Freakonomics.

[VanessaPMR]

Hi Benmorag,

Re:

>"Another theory is that the legalization of abortion in the 1970s caused a significant fall in the crime rate about 18 >years later, since many of the criminals-to-be were never born. The economist who came up with this idea popularized it in >Freakonomics".

This theory was debunked pretty much straight away by more thorough analysis:

http://www.economist.com/node/5246700