Woman died after Muslim nurse refused to help as he was praying

[jelly]

:'(

Alzheimer's sufferer Dorothy Griffiths, 87, was found sitting down after staff heard a bang and a carer went to the office for help to lift her.

But agency nurse Abdul Bhutto, who was in charge, said they would have to wait.

Carer Zoe Shaw told the Sheffield hearing: "It took between five and ten minutes because he was praying upstairs in the office on his prayer mat. A staff member told me we had to wait for him to finish.

A god that demands prayer before mercy is a god unworthy of love. Slimeball religeon

[Marmora Man]

A central tenet of the Islamic faith is charity - in its original sense of love and care for others and particularly others in need of help. Because an idiot who happens to be a Muslim gets it wrong is no reason to malign an entire faith and the good it does.

Paedophile priests are evil, but not everything the Catholic church does is evil.

Your post is almost as ignorant and s*** stirring as the ill educated idiot reported in the cutting.

MM - atheist since 1964.

[Otta]

Well said MM.

[jelly]

Bullshit.

It's a violent and oppressive religion that breeds a stone age mentality among its followers who seem to object to being assimilated into their adoptive culture. It's the antithesis of western society. Sorry you can't (or refuse) to accept that.

[Otta]

Go away you trolling gobshite.

[jelly]

It's not 'trolling'. It's the truth.

[Otta]

Anyway, what about this story was violent or oppressive? It was just a dumbass who shouldn't be in that sort of job if his prayer regime is so strict (which I believe is his personal choice).

No violence or oppression involved.

But you're not really interested are you, you just want to get a bit of attention in your life.

[jelly]

There's no need for personal attacks. And I never claimed that violence or oppression featured in Dorothy Griffiths' tragic passing. Her death was a result of selfish negligence at the behest of a backward religion. Besides, my outlining the ugly truth behind Islam was in response to Marmora Man's waffle about it being a religion of peace, which it clearly isn't.

[sheilarose]

Jelly, what exactly do you know about Islam? What books have you read about it? Which scholars have you listened to about it? You talk about the "ugly truth behind Islam" -- please give full details as to exactly where and how you uncovered this.

[jelly]

@Sheilarose

My views are based on personal experience of muslims and their backward faith. You?

[sheilarose]

What is your personal experience of Muslims? How many have you encountered? I take it that you have discussed their faith with them in great detail. I also presume you have studied the religion extensively. Perhaps you could cite your sources more precisely?

I do not claim to have any knowledge of Islam. What makes you think I have? I have not given my views at all. I tend not to unless I really know what I am talking about. Perhaps you should take a leaf out of my book?

[HAL9000]

Just to add insight to the argument, a Jewish writer explains how interpretations of the Judaeo-Islamic Torah affect non-believers.

Source: A List of Some Problematic Issues Concerning Orthodox Jewish Belief By Naftali Zeligman

95. The status of non-Jews.

The above statements by Chazal do not necessarily have practical Halachic implications. But the situation is much worse: many practical Halachic rulings harshly discriminate between different categories of people. Let us consider, for example, the status of a non-Jew according to Halacha:

Though one must violate the Sabbath to save the life of a Jew, it is forbidden to violate the Sabbath to save the life of a non-Jew (Yoma, chapter 8, mishnahs 6-7; Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 330:2; Mishnah Berurah, 330, subsection 8). The Talmud (Avodah Zarah 26a) tried to explain this law: Jews who observe the Sabbath one is permitted to violate the Sabbath to save, but gentiles who do not observe the Sabbath one is forbidden to save by violating the Sabbath. However, this "explanation" is not worth much: how can one hold it against gentiles that they do not observe the Sabbath if they are not commanded to? Only Jews are so commanded ? and can it be a reason to forbid saving people from death?

Moreover, this is the fate of a non-Jew who wants to observe the Sabbath, according to Halacha:

"A gentile who observed the Sabbath, even if he did it on a weekday [and all the more so if it was actually on Sabbath], if he behaved on this day like a Jew behaves on the Sabbath, he ought to die."

(Maimonides, Laws of Kings 10:9)

Actually, this law is set by the Talmud in Tractate Sanhedrin 58b, and Rashi there explains: "They [the non-Jews] are forbidden to rest not only on Sabbath, which is a day of rest for the Jews... but any rest is forbidden to them, so that they must not relax from their work even on a day that is not a day of rest." So people who happen not to have been born to a Jewish mother are treated by Halacha worse than animals ? a Jew's animal, as we know, must have a rest on the Sabbath.

The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 154:2) goes even further in ruling on how to treat non-Jewish women and children:

"A Jewish woman may not breast-feed a gentile child, even for pay (except if she has too much milk, which makes her suffer ? then she is permitted to breast-feed him). And she also may not help a gentile woman give birth, except if she is known as a midwife ? then she is permitted, but only for pay and not on Sabbath and holidays."

Here one does not deal even with desecration of Sabbath: it is simply forbidden to breast-feed non-Jewish children ? it is all right to let them die unless breast-feeding them will bring some physical relief to a Jewish woman! Nor are we permitted to help a gentile woman give birth at all ? except for a renowned midwife, for if she refuses to help a gentile woman the gentiles would be hostile to the Jews and would not help Jewish women to give birth (Shach on Yoreh Deah 154:2). And even a renowned midwife may help a gentile woman give birth for pay only ? that is, the common human virtue of charity may not be applied to non-Jews.

However, nowadays one can see observant Jewish doctors healing non-Jewish patients, on weekdays as well as on Sabbath and holidays. Why? Here is the answer:

"In our times, when there is fear of more than just animosity if Jewish doctors forbore from treating non-Jews on the Sabbath and left them to die, even this issue is one of saving Jewish lives, for if non-Jewish doctors heard this they would stop treating Jewish patients."

(Rabbi Ovadiah Yossef, "Yabiah Omer," part 8, Orach Chayim, paragraph 38)

That is, the only reason to save gentiles from death is that if we abstain from doing so, it may harm the Jews. No human values, no decency and no compassion.

 

[Huggers]

the news is full of stories of elderly patients who have died on hospital wards from malnutrtion, dehydration- all these deaths are caused by medical negligence, whatever the excuse, whether too busy, religious convictions or filing their nails, it's still negligence. That is all.

[jelly]

@Sheilarose

Like with all people, my experience with muslims is rooted in social interaction (however reluctant). Asking me how many I've 'encountered' is disingenuous at the very least. It's an absurd and contemptuous attempt at distraction. I haven't discussed their faith with them in great detail because on a personal level you'll get bias feedback. The only Islamic scripture I've read is the Suffi. From this I've come to the conclusion that it's interpreted on a liberal basis, but on paper it preaches a hardline doctrine, an intolerant one at that. On the evidence presented I've made-up my own mind.

If you'd actually read what I've written instead of concentrating on formenting doubt, you'd know that I didn't claim that you claim to have knowledge of Islam, so there's no need to answer your question asking me why I think you have, seeing as I haven't proclaimed that you have. On the strength of all that, I can only conclude that taking a leaf out of your book would make me look as stupid as you are.

[MGolden]

'Her death was a result of selfish negligence at the behest of a backward religion.'

Jelly - have you seen her post mortem result or the conclusion of the inquest? If not, where is your evidence to make such a statement? Did this lady fall because she was dying or did she die because she fell? Have her family asked you to raise this issue in a public forum?

'Like with all people, my experience with muslims is rooted in social interaction (however reluctant)'

Maybe the experience of 'all people' interacting with people of the Muslim faith is not 'rooted in social interaction', but since you are 'reluctant' to interact withpeople of a particular faith maybe you just shouldn't bother.

I love living in London with it's diverse social, racial and cultural population. I come across people whose opinions I do not agree with but I do not then condemn their religion, culture or indeed race. I am sure there are communities where diversity is not valued, thank fully London is not one of them.

[jelly]

@MGolden

I heeded your advice long ago. I no longer interact with a people whose religion repulses me. I keep my distance.

I love living in London with it's diverse social, racial and cultural population.

Good for you, but I prefer my own.

[MGolden]

Jelly - you didn't answer my other questions.

[Otta]

Jelly, why don't you move to Luton and join the EDL. People like you deserve people like Sayful Islam, you're all a bunch of nasty c---- whichever side of the fence you're on.

If you're not a troll, then you're just a nasty prejudiced scumbag. The fact is though, that if you are a troll, you're still a freak for using this type of thing to try and get a rise out of people.

[Marie81]

Huggers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the news is full of stories of elderly patients

> who have died on hospital wards from malnutrtion,

> dehydration- all these deaths are caused by

> medical negligence, whatever the excuse, whether

> too busy, religious convictions or filing their

> nails, it's still negligence. That is all.

Totally agree, as someone who is always in and out of hospital I have seen many elderly patients suffer due to negligence, it's disgusting how the elderly are treated by some nurses in hospitals and what are the point of these carer's on the wards? They don't have the power to do anything except go and get a nurse!

[jelly]

@MGolden

I ignored your questions because they were idiotic. But if you insist, I'll reply. The coroner's office isn't in the habit of releasing the results of a post mortem so the day after their death. But I'm sure that a competent coronor will be able to assess that her death came as a result of her fall and not natural causes. Whether or not she died as a result of ailing health or from the impact of the fall doesn't come into it. She was in an environment where an accute duty of care is demanded of its staff. It's a bit like a policeman telling you that he or she will pursue the person who's just assaulted you after they've finished their cigarette. Her suffering was prolonged by the nurse choosing their inconsequential faith over a person in their care who desperately needed help. There's no excuse for that. And her family hasn't asked me to raise this on a public forum. Do you think they asked a national newspaper to cover the incident?

[jelly]

@Otta

I'd rather stay where I am and I'd rather not associate myself with a Zionist puppet organisation. Perhaps you might consider joining since you clearly need to get out more.

[MGolden]

Jelly - I didn't insist, it was merely a comment.

'The coroner's office isn't in the habit of releasing the results of a post mortem so the day after their death' - I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Do you mean 'on' the day after a death rather than 'so'? Coroners generally don't make statements until inquests are opened and it would be highly unusual for an inquest to be opened the day after someone dies.

Of course a coroner will make his or her judgement on the basis of facts and in your post you have not stated the facts regarding this person's fall.

I have no idea whether the family asked a national newspaper to cover the tragic death or their loved one. I also have no idea if the blue text at the top of your post is from a national newspaper, a local newspaper or you.

[jelly]

The blue text contains a link to the source of the actual text, dummy. That source being a national newspaper (The Telegraph). Even Otta grasped that. And I'm trying to say that a) I don't have a post mortem, and b) you should know that in all likelihood I don't have one. But I'm sure the author of the article - or one of their sources - has seen a copy. It would make writing the story somewhat problematic if they hadn't.

[Otta]

I give jelly no more than 3 days. Anyone else?

[MGolden]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I give jelly no more than 3 days. Anyone else?

Monday.