Dog (on dog) attack in Peckham Rye Park today - 16.40 (23/3/2012)

[Jeremy]

Marie81 Wrote:

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> it's the owner to blame not the breed.

I'm sure there is an element of truth to that - dogs need to be well trained/socialised. But all animals are unpredictable to some extent, and we're talking about a dog which has specifically been bred for a strong prey instinct and a powerful bite. Such an animal needs to either be on a lead or muzzled at all times.

[fuzzyboots]

Yes Jeremy, I completely agree. It is vital to know and understand the basic characteristics, instincts and behaviours of your breed of dog, so that you can make them happy, healthy, sociable and safe. To not know what you're taking on in your dog would be downright thoughtless - a dog MUST have the right home and circumstances and a knowledgeable, committed owner.

I desperately want a family dog - but I rent and therefore owning a dog is not an option currently. I am continually researching what the best kind of dog for our family circumstances/lifestyle would be though, in anticipation of the happy day when we can have a dog.

Edited to add - also, my youngest (the one who witness the attack) is not quite ready for a dog in our home, although Morph and Croi have been very helpful in teaching him to respect and care for a dog. He's not yet able to stop himself from fussing at a dog, so he needs to mature a bit before I'd expose a dog to his enthusiasm and all the love he has to offer a canine companion in our home - it wouldn't have anywhere to escape to! The poor thing would be overloved!

[bonniebird]

Hi Trish,

Chaz is a 5 year old Labrador cross Retriever. Poor Chaz has had to come back into foster as an unforeseen illness in his newly adoptive family meant he could not be offered the suitable home that was intended. Chaz is a truly loving lovely fellow. His true passion is children - he adores them, so a home with youngsters would be his idea of heaven. He is very laid back with horses and chickens. He loves to play with a ball, sleeps well all night in the kitchen, is 100% housetrained. He lives here with 5 other dogs - big and small - male and female - and is faultless with all of them. He is very sociable with everyone he meets, and has the sort of temperament where he would settle very quickly into a loving home. Chaz has very retriever traits, and loves to 'hold' your hand or foot with his paws whilst looking at you with adoration in his eyes!!!!!!!!!!

BEING FOSTERED IN MIDHURST, EAST SUSSEX. For more info please go to www.manytears.co.uk

Good luck Many Tears has tonnes of dogs and puppies needing homes good luck xxx

[fuzzyboots]

Oh he looks gorgeous - but I'm not sure my friend would be able to travel 55 miles to go and view him and it looks like he really would prefer to live WITH children rather than have them as visitors. Sigh/gulp ...

[Huggers]

oh fuzzy, our dog came from a home in midhurst, he was well worth the 55 miles and it ended his terrible loneliness.

[fuzzyboots]

I completely appreciate that but sadly data is unable to travel distances like that :(

[Marie81]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Marie81 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > it's the owner to blame not the breed.

>

> I'm sure there is an element of truth to that -

> dogs need to be well trained/socialised. But all

> animals are unpredictable to some extent, and

> we're talking about a dog which has specifically

> been bred for a strong prey instinct and a

> powerful bite. Such an animal needs to either be

> on a lead or muzzled at all times.

Yes I agree all animals are unpredicatable to some extent but I don't think a dog should be muzzled unless it has shown major signs of dog/people aggression. I don't think it's fair to muzzle just because it's a staffie, I have walked many wonderful staffies all friendly and find them the most responsive to training. There are other breeds with just as much strong prey instinct such as my own. The owner needs to know what they're taking on when they own a bull breed as with any breed of dog.

[first mate]

I think the point is that this particular dog appears to have something of a history. Aside from Fuzzyboots, I've counted three other incidents that have appeared on this thread that all seem to have involved this same dog- a blue staff is fairly distinctive.

Given the apparent history, I find the shock and contrition of the owner a little unconvincing- unless he is in massive denial and some people do bury their head in the sand where their dog's behaviour is concerned.

This particular dog will need a massive amount of structured training and may never be wholly trustworthy with other dogs, especially small dogs. It should not be let off lead in the park or on the streets and probably will need muzzling for now.

Will the owner comply?

[Marie81]

I agree first mate The dog in question should be kept out of the park, on a lead and muzzled whilst in training and slowly be intergrated back into the park still wearing it's muzzle/lead. Unfortunately I very much doubt the owner will comply, seeing as Morph's walker knows who the owner is can't the police get involved to ensure the owner complys?

[Renata Hamvas]

I spoke to Mark Newell yesterday. The dog involved in this case is to be muzzled. One thing to be aware of is that the dog involved in this incident came from a large litter and all it's littermates live locally, with different owners. This means that even if you seen another dog that looks the same, it may not be the same dog but a sibling. There have been other dog-on-dog attacks in the area eg one a few weeks ago in Nunhead Cemetery. Mark has asked that any attacks are reported both to him and to the police.

Renata

[Baxter]

Hi. Thanks very much for the info on Chaz. He sounds adorable and lively. Unfortunately, he would not be the type for me as I am lacking in children, horses, chickens etc. His existence would just be with me most of the time so he would be bored to tears in my house with just me to play with! I'll know when I've found my next companion who needs loads of TLC, walks and 22 hours (bad sleeper) of optional play-time.

[PaulK]

fuzzyboots Wrote:

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> Good news everyone - Mark has found the owner of

> Blue and has his contact details. Mark says the

> man is very shocked and wants to apologise> directly to Dara, which is positive. He is also

> getting a muzzle for Blue.

>

> I've also received a couple of really helpful

> pointers in terms of rescue dogs/rescue centres

> who might have Dara's next forever dog - thanks so

> much. There are a few beautiful and likely

> looking characters - so please cross everything

> folks!

>

> Trish/FB

Bullshit. He is only sorry he has been traced.

[emilydrab]

I am devastated to hear about poor little Morph and the vet's dog (I think that might be Amber's dog Hugo who is a lovely friendly little chap). It brings back horrible memories of what happened to my dog Woody two years ago, and anyone who sees me in the park will know I'm now a nervous wreck where other dogs are concerned (particularly big bull terrier types with a hungry look in their eyes) and stick to the outside of the park on our walks, or streetwalk. I feel so angry that so many walkers of dogs are too scared to go to the park - I'm one of them and stories like this show that I'm not paranoid not to have a relaxing walk. Dogs (particularly little ones who are more likely to be finished off by an attack) really are in danger. It's just devastating that people are allowed to get away with having vicious dogs who treat other dogs as prey. A muzzle just won't do it. That dog Blue should be put down and his owner prosecuted. This isn't two dogs having a little tiff - it's about a predator attacking its prey. Anyone who has witnessed this will realise how horrible this is, how terrifying. Another time and it will be a little toddler or a baby who gets attacked. The dog obviously has a record and if the owner was that devastated he would have done something about this long ago. As the PaulK says, only sorry he has been traced.

[Huggers]

Emily, remember well your awful experience from last year. But please lets not encourage the myth that a dog hostile to other dogs is going to start attacking babies, it just brings out the dog haters.

[emilydrab]

I take your point to some extent Huggers, but when you see a huge dog attacking a small dog and look at their faces while they do it, it's not about being hostile to another dog it's about prey. It's the same look dog's get when they are trying to get after squirrels - hungry, crazy for blood. It's terrifying. I seriously do believe a dog who attacks like this - and let's face it this Blue was not under threat by little Morph or behaving in a doggy competitive way - could easily attack a crawling baby as well. The dog and owner are not under any control. It could happen, and I don't think I'm being dramatic to suggest it.

[Marie81]

No I totally disagree emilydrab, one of my dogs is dog aggressive and has high chase instinct when it comes to squirrels and cats but with humans the most docile dog you could ever meet and leaves children/babies well alone. I have had toddlers toddling around my living room and if approached by them he just ignores them. My nephew who is a bit older runs and yes I can see my male dog want to chase and if allowed to play he will chase but never jump up however if I was to let him off lead in a park he would chase any animal that moves and probably shake! But don't worry that never happens, 1: we are on top of this and using a behaviourist and 2: he is on a lead.

[emilydrab]

Marie81 well all dogs are different, and glad to hear yours is under control when you are out. But dogs can and do attack children and babies and there's no reason to say a dog who is not trained and not under control definitely won't. In my dog's case when he was attacked he wasn't running, he wasn't chased, he was on a lead. The dog just came up and pounced on him. Obviously you know your dog and know he is trustworthy with children, but there's no reason to think this Blue dog would be the same. Anyway, my general point is that dogs who are aggressive and in the case of poor Morph have actually killed another dog, should not just be asked politely to wear a muzzle, it's time for more drastic police action.

[Marie81]

Hi emilydrab, I agree dogs can and do attack humans I just thought your previous comment that dogs that have dog aggression are then going to go on and attack a child dramatic and likely to cause scaremongering amongst the parents on EDF. My other dog has also been attacked a few times whilst on a lead by a dog just running over and turning on her without being provoked, the last dog that attacked her was a Cocker Spaniel. I can?t speak for Blue and yes he could be a danger to humans for all I know I just don?t think all dog aggressive dogs should be tarred with the same brush. Yes of course police action should be brought and Blue shouldn?t just be muzzled but put into a training programme to get to the source of his aggression aswell and to educate the owner.

[maybe]

Has anyone let James Barber know? I think he may be able to help.

[beababies]

hi Trish,

So so sorry to hear about this tragic story, thank you for putting up all the details as well as the intricacies of the attack. The fact that it happened through play and a seeming accident only makes it even more sad and it definitely serves as a caution for dog owners like myself as I know I can get quite relaxed with dogs meeting my dog in the park and tend to think that if dogs are off the lead then they must be socialized.

I just wanted to say if you are looking for free legal advice, you can go to your local Citizens Advice Bureau and see / get help from a lawyer for free.

Best,

Bea

[Pugwash]

Sorry to hear the sad news.

Upto a few years ago we had rescued greyhounds. Docile and good with children, when out in the park or street they

would lung at cats and sometimes other dogs. For this reason we always had them muzzled as a precaution. people asked if they were dangerous animals, they were not but we would rather be safe than sorry just in case they injured another animal.

If 'Blue's' owner was sorry - I suggest he fork out the ?300 vets fees.

[first mate]

I'm not sure how James Barber could help?

Simple measures would include the requirement that all dogs are always walked on lead on the street. I still cannot understand why this is not implemented as the only people I ever see walking dog off lead are young bull breed owners of a certain type.

In the park there should be certain sections where dogs are kept on lead. This would give people (both dog-woning and non dog owning) the opportunity to avoid other offlead dogs if they want. I note that some dog owners are still letting their dogs off in the Japanese Garden, where there are notices quite clearly asking owners to keep dogs on a lead. Why?

At entrances to parks and around the cafe area dogs should be kept on a lead. I frequently see dogs meandering off lead around the cafe and owners letting their dogs off at the narrow passageway past the toilets.

If you see a dog on the lead in a park don't let your dog go bounding up to it- this is bad manners, bad practice and can cause problems. If you are unable to call your dog away then you need to go back to training classes until you can.

Dogs need to be well socialised and allowed to play together but where there is a mssive differtence in size and strength it is not hard to see how problems can develop. All play should be carefully supervised and stopped if it looks to be getting OTT.

It is important to make a distinction between 'spats'- which will happen between dogs and are generally all about display and warnings and 'attacks' where puncture wounds are left.Nonetheless, you do not want a tiny dog getting into a 'spat' with a very large dog because there is the possibility that the smaller dog feels overwhelmed and becomes aggressive. The smaller dog starts to dislike larger dogs and then possibly all dogs. If you have a large dog, try to consider the smaller dog owner a bit more.

Prey drive is a different issue and involves different neural pathways to other types of aggression which tend to develop out of fear. Dogs that play in a very pushy way and use their teeth a lot, delivering nips while chasing should be monitored and have their chase instinct redirected. Owners of these kinds of dogs need to train around different outlets for prey drive. Don't let your dog chase squirrels teach it to chase a ball instead. Bottom line any dog developed for hunting- all terriers, all hounds and many other groups, have the capacity to develop/show strong prey drive. These dogs needs to be taught as pups to redirect that drive into appropriate outlets. If you cannot be bothered to spend the time to do this, do not buy/own one of these breeds.

[LadyDeliah]

The attack on Morph sounds awful and I sympathise but I think it's wrong to generalise about bull breed dogs.

My dog is a staff cross and will chase squirrels, foxes and cats if he gets a chance but is great with my two cats and free range chickens, even letting them eat from his food bowl. So he has a strong prey drive but this does not extend to all 'prey'. He is also really good with other dogs even when the other dog acts aggressively towards him and even small dogs.

He is really friendly with people and my granddaughter, who is 5 now, has been bossing him around since she was old enough to walk and talk.

I think the reason that my dog is as good as he is, was that I had him castrated at the age of 10 months and he is neither submissive nor over dominant.

Submissive or fearful dogs invite attack from other dogs and dogs will pick up the fear from their owners, so I think it is important for the owners to remain calm and confident, unless of course their dog is actually being attacked, then I think I personally would find it impossible not to intervene.

[Marie81]

Well said firstmate :))I did however see a man in his 40's walking a yorkie off lead the other day, but you're right it's usually bull breeds and younger owners.

I posted a couple of posters in the lounge thread about 'dogs in need of space' and 'how not to greet a dog' will post them here again with hope that people will find these helpful.

[Marie81]

I printed these off for my young nephews and nieces, I wish I could post these around the park...can think of some other dog owners I know who definitely need to take note!