Gina Ford's new book - new mums & sex

[Saffron]

Otta Wrote:

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reren Wrote:

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>> Although pretty strongly the opposite end of the

>> spectrum from gina in terms of controlled crying

>> etc - I have always disliked the dismissal of gina

>> as being unable to offer advice because she isnt a

>> parent herself - it feels a bit clubby to me - you

>> arent part of our mums club therefore we dont have

>> to listen to you.

> I certainly wouldn't dismiss a person's advise on

> many areas of child care, because they were not a

> parent themselves.

>

> However, when it comes to talking about dealing

> with a newborn, I do think it's fair to question

> her. She may well have looked after a million

> babies...

Yes, highly questionable.

Her PR website says there was no formal qualification for "maternity nurse" during the time she trained (...as a nurse?), but that she has looked after over 300 babies, over 12 years. Well it's hardly lifetime is it? Twelve years is nothing in academic terms. Many certified behavioural studies of longterm outcomes would take at least that long! As well she is neither a psychologist nor an ob-gyn. In short, if a person tried to use GF as a reference on a serious piece of academic work, s/he would be a laughing stock. If anyone likes GF or finds her methods useful, fair enough. I'm not criticizing individual parents. But GF is skating on thin ice scientifically. Even where she's given them her own twist, the behavioural methods she cites were developed by other people, and many of them are highly disputed within the academic community. Is that the sound of cracking ice I hear?

[womanofdulwich]

I have never read any of her books, but there are a very small number of woman who aren't interested in sex and use a baby to make an excuse to avoid it. Separate bedrooms etc. They let the baby run the house. Of course some fathers do too!!

[helena handbasket]

>

> Yes, highly questionable.

> Her PR website says there was no formal

> qualification for "maternity nurse" during the

> time she trained (...as a nurse?), but that she

> has looked after over 300 babies, over 12 years.

> Well it's hardly lifetime is it? Twelve years is

> nothing in academic terms. Many certified

> behavioural studies of longterm outcomes would

> take at least that long! As well she is neither a

> psychologist nor an ob-gyn. In short, if a person

> tried to use GF as a reference on a serious piece

> of academic work, s/he would be a laughing stock.

> If anyone likes GF or finds her methods useful,

> fair enough. I'm not criticizing individual

> parents. But GF is skating on thin ice

> scientifically. Even where she's given them her

> own twist, the behavioural methods she cites were

> developed by other people, and many of them are

> highly disputed within the academic community. Is

> that the sound of cracking ice I hear?

But then if you think about it, we are always looking for advice and take it from people who have even less experience. At least in her purely anecdotal experiences she has worked with 300 or so babies. That's more than most teachers. This forum and Mumsnet etc. are used for advice all the time, from people whose experience is often limited to their own children! And Piaget famously used sampling sizes of only 12 children (that's another conversation though).

Basically, not one bit of science but more than the ramblings of ones mother or neighbor, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, what is this "sex" you speak of?

[bluesuperted]

HH, the PGCE course gives trainee teachers direct teaching experience of approximately 90 children in one year (if you train to be a primary teacher, many more than that if you train as a secondary teacher). Reaching 300 wouldn't take too long after that plus teachers have experience of more children (on an 'anecdotal' level) than they actually teach....

[helena handbasket]

I am a secondary teacher, since 1998. I also have a psychology degree, with related field work in child development.

But a primary teacher, with 20-25 children/year, might reach the 300 mark in twelve years. However, not in a private individualized environment that a maternity nurse might work in.

It's just an observation.

[bluesuperted]

Hmm, classes of 20 are all but extinct in the state sector, 30 much more the norm.

A maternity nurse might swoop in for a few weeks only, a primary teacher forges a close relationship with 30 children a year, plus other less close relationships (e.g clubs, residential trips, other year group class). It's a funny comparison IMO...

[helena handbasket]

Are you a teacher?

Maybe it's like saying "She's not a mother, so she can't know what it's really like".

I do know what teaching involves, as I am one. Thanks for setting me straight on the nature of my relationships with my students.

Maybe it's a comparison one can only make if you are both a mother AND a teacher? No wait, that would be ridiculous.......

[sophiechristophy]

'Taking care' of a baby and being a mother to a baby are two different things. I would suggest GF may be in a position to give her opinion on the former, but don't understand why anyone would be interested in her opinion of the latter.

[bluesuperted]

Nope only a teacher's wife sadly, just being pedantic about your 'most teachers' comment, and now causing another digression from Ragina Ford and sex, whoops.

[Fuschia]

In the ten years it would take a primary teacher to work with 300 children, s/he would be with them all day, every term time day for a year, 1000 hours, by my estimates.

That would be the same as working 100 10h shifts as a maternity nurse, for a child, multiplied by 30

So approx 4-5m per child, x 30 - 10 years

As to spend that amount of time with 300 babies would take 100 years, I think we can say gf has spent a lot less time with children than your average primary teacher

Sorry to be pedantic

Can never resist a bout of mental arithmetic

How long DOES a maternity nurse spend with a baby? 2-3 weeks?

[Fuschia]

My research tells me it's 4/8 weeks

[bluesuperted]

Fuschia, you are a legend!

[Fuschia]

Sorry, I am a bit of a number geek

'tis me profession!

[Ruth_Baldock]

HH, it's something Mummies and Daddies do when they love each other very much, and what they do when their Firstborn is behaving well at night, thus the existence of second born. Hence no sex again. Ever. Not chancing another baby, tyvm.

[Fuschia]

Of course gf has also worked with twins (and there is a book to show for it) but we would need additional information about what proportion of the 300 babies were multiples, to calculate more accurately how much time it would take her to catch up with A teacher

Truth be told, our own children spend more of their weekly waking hours with their teachers than they do with us, the parents, in term time, anyway.

Thinking about it, the combined wisdom of mumsnet or Edf probably does count for a fair bit, even the parents of one child have clocked up a fair few hours by the time the child starts school. Perhaps there should be some accreditation scheme with a log book system. Extra allowance given for each bout of an infectious disease, vomiting or infantile antisocial behaviour.

[hellosailor]

Otta and Saffron, the quote you are attributing to me is not actually my post but somebody else's! Just sayin'! xx

[Saila]

good on GF for all she's done for thousands of new mums out there. I'm a mum but i knew fk all about babies and found her book a god-send. Our son has slept like a dream and i put a lot of that down to her very sensible sound advice to a new mum, in the early days (me).

Thank god i'm not up all night, like many i know even into toddler age.

Good for her - she's a successful woman and as it's 'women's day' the other day - here's to you Gina - have a glass on me and the thousands who you've helped/saved.

:)

[Smiler]

Hmmmm, d'we think gina has a view on vasectomy?

The primary school comparison thing has gone a bit nuts, surely time with a wailing newborn passes more slowly than with a class of delightful school children.

So 300 babies = 3000 school children or dog years or something!

[sophiechristophy]

Saila - how nice that your son is such a good sleeper. I won't join you in your toast to GF though, especially as it was International Women's Day on Thursday, due to the negative impact I can imagine she has had on the breastfeeding success of women who have followed her routine.

[Smiler]

Smug parents of sleeping babies(td)

[Smiler]

But will toast to the sleeping babies themselves :)-D

[Belle]

She's really not anti bf to be honest - copious amounts of bf info in her books, I have read parenting books which are far less pro. She includes info on bottle feeding too but all her routines use bf as default (whether anyone can keep up with the frantic '20 mins left, express for 10 mins) schedule is another thing!)

Saila - I felt a bit like that with my first, as it was a couple of things I got from GF that I felt helped him to sleep through relatively early. But I've tried a few of the same methods with my second (e.g. doing a feed at 10.30, doing feeds at roughly 7, 10, 2, 6 though not rigidly so) and he is the worst sleeper I can imagine having, two nights ago I got no sleep at all until 3.30am and that was only because my mum was here to take over (and also then have no sleep!). There is nothing really in the book to help with the issues we've had.

Anyway my very unscientific sample of two shows it works for some babies, not for others I guess. I've done far more earth mothery type things with my second mainly because he's got such bad reflux so e.g. co sleeping/slinging have seemed obvious paths to help comfort him, but in the long run that hasn't helped him much either - now screams if try to co sleep, for instance. My conclusion is I am very much a 'flexi-mum' and will continue to carve my sometimes shaky path across the middle ground. But let's not bring Oliver James into the fray! :)

[Saila]

that wasn't meant to come across as smug. Sorry if it did.

I found GF really helpful. I didn't pick up a book (as thousands dont) until well after i personally stopped bf.

From my memory - i struggled to adapt her routines to formula as her book just described bf routines and not formula feeding routines so i'm confused by the link to bf rates. Moreover, bf has been on the rise since her book came out?

i posted partly cos i think this thread has turned into what seems to me like a one-sided-slagging match and partly cos she has helped me and thousands of others. Whatever you say aobut her and her book, she's helped a LOT of women get through a tough few months.

[helena handbasket]

Ruth_Baldock Wrote:

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> HH, it's something Mummies and Daddies do when

> they love each other very much, and what they do

> when their Firstborn is behaving well at night,

> thus the existence of second born. Hence no sex

> again. Ever. Not chancing another baby, tyvm.

Oh right the first born behaving well at night part. I'm still waiting (hence no second born).

As for the bizarre math equation previously posted, there's no point in even dignifying that. Quite ironic to be told about my profession, by people who aren't in it (being admin or being married are not the same)on a thread debating the merits of baby advice from someone who isn't a mother. *Many* teachers spend about five minutes/day/student one-on-one if lucky. That math works out much differently.

Which goes back to my original point: Everyone is an expert on everything, regardless of experience. So why single Gina Ford out?

For the record, "Gina Ford" is such a bunch of books I've never read. No opinion on her whatsoever. But I read posts like Saila's and think "Some people find her helpful. That's good enough for me."

[Fuschia]

Well obviously teachers aren't working with babies at all, we are just being facetious ( and not even gf is claiming 'carnal knowledge' of 300 men to base her sex guru advice on ... Always comes back to the same thing, I reckon

A Glib formula might sell books but is no substitute for a good dose of common sense and the confidence to do what's right for you and your family ...