Moving to ED

[katie1997]

...has anyone mentioned that there's rather a lot of wildlife in East Dulwich by any chance? ;-)

[Chick]

Gingerbeer Wrote:

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> El Pibe ---- Americans really do hate the French.

> The general mode of thought is that French =

> Coward. Our memories are long, but apparently stop

> somewhere before 1776. I have nothing against them

> personally, although their language has proven to

> be a constant thorn in my academic side. I can

> begrudgingly admit this *may* be my fault and not

> theirs.

>

> The Barry Barry sounds interesting, but I do. not.

> run. Im an excellent spectator though!

Bring on the freedom fries

[El Pibe]

I dunno about this French = Coward thing.

It's been niggling me all night like a pea under a mattress.

It smacks of a form of antiquity illusion, a mistaken belief that a linguistic concept is older than it really is.

I'm trying to think what it might really be.

We may ridicule the French, we may find them insufferable and unberarable, their fashion annoyingly chic (or daft), but one thing we'd never accuse them of is cowardice.

We've fought against them more times than we can remember and fought alongside them at the Somme and at Pashcendale. I challenge anyone to read the heartbreaking accounts of Verdun and dare to call them cowards.

Even in 1940 they lost 85,000 dead in the space of 6 weeks (that's 50% more than the losses in Vietnam over 10 years!!). You don't do that through cowardice you do that by fighting bravely in futile circumstances.

I do think that the US has historically suffered a cultural inferiority complex as regards France. The French (rightly or wrongly) were so assured of who and what they are, so bloody superior.

Britain traditionally had no issue with that because it had the quiet self-assured and god-given knowledge that it was in fact far superior*, the US has by definition had to carve out an identity and has never had a real bedrock, more like a cocksure teenager, to FRance's grizzled old man.

Ultimately my instincts tell me that Chick has hit the nail on the head.

It all came about when they refused to sign up to our dirty little war in Iraq.

Besmirching the French national character made us feel better about ourselves as we launched an idiotic war rather than face up to the fact that they were actually being eminently sensible.

By all means ridicule their 'seely leetle 'ats', but cowards? I think non.

....

I'm overthinking things again aren't i!!!

*Mind you I'm not sure this holds true for either of France or Britain as we struggle to find our roles in a post imperial world and what national identity is in a post multicultural age. I think the US will also have to come to terms with the former sooner or later but is better placed to deal with the latter as it is in many respects has by definition had to manufacture an identity and has multiculturalism in its very genes.

[woodrot]

I think Gingerbeer should watch Jonathon Meades last batch of docs about France to get some idea of how we view the French

[computedshorty]

I start at six in the morning as it takes me a long time and I dont go by road I go over the Peckham Rye Common, and come up from behind.

[Jeremy]

I don't think the English hate the French at all. They're our closest neighbour (not counting Scotland and Wales, we can't criticise them as they already struggle with paranoia and an inferiority complex), so there's an obvious rivalry. It's generally good-natured "frog"/"rosbif" banter, and sporting one-upmanship. Millions(?) of Brits travel to France each year, so clearly we do not hate them.

As El Pibe says, the "surrender" reputation came back to the foreground recently when they refused to get involved in a war that they didn't feel was justified. Good for them.

[El Pibe]

Here's some vintage mash that nicely sums it up

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/french-trader-was-forced-to-work-30-hours-a-week-20080125680/

[Michael Palaeologus]

Um, I dont think that the perception of the French as being a bit rubbish at the war thing is based on recent history. This view does suit those who have a particular take on the Iraq War, but doesnt really relect the national antipathy felt towards France certainly since the Napoleonic Wars and before.

Certainly, these early wars were about political and economic power and so were not particularly high brow on our part.

The French "surrender" reputation comes about from losing conflicts over time - Agincourt, the retreat from Moscow, Waterloo, Trafalgar, the French army in revolt on the Western Front, the Battle of France, Vichy, Indo-China and Algeria.

Their record of late is more positive, they did have the bottle to stay out of Iraq but led the charge into Libya, for which, fair play.

[Gingerbeer]

"One war? Which one is that, World War I, when the molasses-slow German army was able to drive the French to within 20 miles of Paris? World War II, where they retreated the entire length and breadth of their country, and many of the French citizens cooperated with and collabarated with the Nazis? How about the way they failed in Vietnam, Algeria, and Libya? Maybe we should go back to when the Foreign Legion was defeated by the freakin' Mexicans in the late 1800s, their loss of Haiti and the Dominican Republic, their losses during the French and Indian war and the Hundred Years War. It's no coincidence that the best fighting force the French has is composed entirely of foreigners."

***These are not my words, don't shoot the messenger! This is from a forum that was asking why Americans think the French are cowards, and it is a fairly typical response. Many Americans, assuming they know their history (which I assure you they don't) would agree with this assessment. However, since history isn't a strong suit, most will just stick with WWII as a jumping off point for calling them cowards.

Dumb? Absolutely. Ignorant? Sure. Common? I'm embarrassed to say.

[El Pibe]

What a very selective list.

Agincourt wasn't a conflict it was a battle, part of a conflict we began to lose soon thereafter, and one rather short in glory despite the historical revisionism of the tudors, victorians et al, one where we depopulated large swathes of the country and committed wholesale murder.

As for 'retreat from Moscow', having defeated every army Europe could throw at it the French overstretch and freeze/starve in the Russian winter. Poor strategy for sure but hardly bad at war.

Waterloo, the combined armies of Prussia, The Dutch Republic, assorted huns and Britain very nearly lose to a hastily cobbled together force of veterans, the result hanging in the balance until the timely arrival of some Germans.

Revolt on the Western front, a justifiable reaction to the million poilu who walked to their death like the proverbial lambs at Verdun at the behest of their vainglorious superiors.

As for Algeria or Indo-China, it'd be an unwise American to have a pop at the French for failing at neo-imperial counter-insurgency.

I'm no Francophile, but in the interests of baalnce a frenchie could justifiably call into question our military prowess with a similar list, saaaay

Afghanistan (all four wars), Crimea, Gallipoli, Battle of France (1940), US War of Independence, Orleans, La Rochelle, Bordeaux, Medway, the Boer Wars.....

*ETA that Trafalgar was very cool though!!!*

[El Pibe]

X posted with you there Gingerbeer.

Cherry picking history to suit one's point of view is a widespread crime GB (ooh i like the appropriateness of your initials considering your destination!!), not one exclusive to your countryment believe you me.

Your quoted text is typical of just such historical liberties.

As MP's list betrays, people bask in their self-reflected glory wilfully oblivious to their own copious historical failings.

US military history is hardly one to revel in. Independent thanks to French support, miserably failed to take Canada a few years later and then littered with rather one sided expansionary colonial conflicts and genocidal campaigns.

Timely intervention in World War 1 and finally in the second one a war that more or less fits the bill of just war and one all the allied participants have harked to ever since to portray ourselves as the good guys when we've all (Britain, US, France and Russia) spent the ensuing years figthing nasty little brush fire wars, proipping up murderous regimnes and generally crushing people's attempts at self-determination in one form or another.

[Gingerbeer]

I'm afraid I can't justify the poor argument of someone else, so you'll just have to take winsies on this one El Pibe. ;-) Chalk it up to stupid Americans...

[Gingerbeer]

By the way, what is *ETA*? I only know it as Estimated Time of Arrival...

[El Pibe]

No worries, I in no way shape or form hold you responsible, I could see you were enlightening us as to how all forums are silly ;)

*ETA* = Edited to add

[Michael Palaeologus]

"Poor strategy for sure but hardly bad at war" - Huh!! It is precisely that!

The list of French failure is almost universaly down to bad strategy. For instance, if you dont want to lose a European war, DONT go to war with most of Europe. If you dont want to be invaded by Germany make sure your defences cover the big hole that was the Ardennes. Indeed if you dont want to lose the 2nd WW, dont try fighting it as you did the 1st WW.

Your list of British losses is mostly a list of Battles, not wars. The US Indepedance War we lost. Did we lose the Boer war? No. Used some nasty tactics?? Yes.

I could give a very lengthy list of British vistories, I would suggest that these would outweigh our defeats. Not so the French.

[Michael Palaeologus]

*ETA* = Basque separatist group - El Pibesey?

[El Pibe]

MP, I was echoing your list from a french point of view, hence the inclusion of battles, including those that every French schoolboy knows, never having heard of the likes of Crecy and Agincourt; it's how Countries operate (see also Scots with Banockburn/Flodden respectively).

France went to war with all of Europe and won, redrawing the political map forever, but it was the first in a long line to discover the truism echoed by our very own Bernard Montgomery "One of the great laws of war is never invade Russia".

Yeah we 'won' the boer wars insofar as we drubbed a people into submission through sheer brutality, I cited it because it was very poorly fought militarily. Sort of the opposite of Vietnam where we lost all the battles and won the war.

I'll grant you the Maginot thing, but these things are easy to say with hindsight, one might equally say of the Russians (who taught the Germans most of what they new in the 20s and 30s) don't shoot or sack all your officers who know how to fight wars just before you fight one. Luckily they had long supply lines and winters to let them learn their lessons, France wasn't so fortunate.

We of course were every bit as unprepared for Blitzkreig.

Interesting what you say about not fighting world war one battles, as our great victory at El Alemain could have been a blueprint for the battles of 1918, but there I'm getting picky and we're boring everyone senseless.

My point is it's stupid and simplistic to say things like the French are cowards when quite clearly they are not. Or to say we're brilliant when our history is littered with a vast catalogue of military incompetence and failure too. Noone comes up smelling of roses in this knob-length contest.

The Republic of Ireland maybe, they've never fought lost a war ;)

[Gingerbeer]

Speaking of stupid and simplistic I laughed at your "knob-length contest". (god Im such a nerd some days) That is not an expression Ive heard before. I imagine Im going to spend most of my time in London giggling and snorting at words/expressions I find adorable and silly.

And dont think any one of you wouldnt walk into a US grocery store and laugh when you saw boxes of "Puffs" tissues.

[El Pibe]

I'm just wondering why knobs should smell of roses!!

[Gidget]

Gingerbeer Wrote:

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> Speaking of stupid and simplistic I laughed at

> your "knob-length contest". (god Im such a nerd

> some days) That is not an expression Ive heard

> before. I imagine Im going to spend most of my

> time in London giggling and snorting at

> words/expressions I find adorable and silly.

>

> And dont think any one of you wouldnt walk into a

> US grocery store and laugh when you saw boxes of

> "Puffs" tissues.

Are you getting confused with poofs? or even pouffes?

[Michael Palaeologus]

Never said the French were cowards. Just militarily incompetent.

Brave but a bit dim.

Not sure how knob length affects the pissing context. My own generative organ is really quite tiny, but I can wee way above my head.

[HAL9000]

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

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>My own generative organ is really quite tiny ...

You are Howard Stern and I claim my five dollars!

[Eddleston]

To me liptons are only a vague memory...I probably knew them from some weird school celebration. However, here is a german too, happy tea drinker and proud owner of a tea egg...otherwise I go for earl grey. >:D

[steveo]

What's Ginger's eta then? Or has she crept in sans fanfare and is already living among us, perhaps wearing a hat?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I wouldn't get your knickers in a twist. Going by the Yanks in WWII, it'll be another three years before she arrives.