Mediumship

[PeckhamRose]

shaman Wrote:

"I have seen many ghosts and watched them move objects etc, but am know for my sceptism and wil only find supernatural explaination after investigating all other answers."

PeckhamRose(fromthedead) writes:

So just to push you a little on this (and having read about shamans and shamanist practices and beliefs), may I ask - when you say you investigate all other answers first, are you a scientist by trade capable of doing so? Before science as we know it, your equivalent would have tried to explain thunder and rainbows but not got far, and so invented gods. You said you see ghosts move objects. Why do they bother to move objects? Are the objects in their way? Why don't they do something useful like prove themselves once and for all? If they move objects they can do useful stuff for the rest of us living folk.

Just asking, like. ;)

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Charlie - a friend of mine is a Quaker and I really like their take on things especially the lack of rules and personal responsibility.

[char1ie]

Lack of rules? The Quaker anachist! I'm not a quaker. But I approve.

I used to work in the World of Spirits too. I got fired for nicking a bottle of scotch and had to get a job at Oddbins.

Charlie

[shaman]

Sorry not replied sooner to ?s on occassion I am asked along with my partner to deal with problem spirits over the years have found that most things have very down to earth answer or can be combination of both. Am an experienced builder and have sound knowledge of central heating, electrics, plumbing and general building elminating the more mundane from peoples fears. Also studied psychology and anatomy and physiology to degree level so are aware of how peoples perception can influence their understanding of certain situations.

They sometimes but extremily rarely move obects to let people know they are there since most people are not able to perceive the real thing, they have no need to prove their existence because to them they are real.

Genuine hauntings are very rare, the actions of mediums are usually of little danger to any taking part however some abuse their power over their clients because of ego or finacial gain and these I have little time for.

[PeckhamRose]

"They sometimes but extremily rarely move obects to let people know they are there since most people are not able to perceive the real thing, they have no need to prove their existence because to them they are real."

Sorry, that is the biggest get out clause ever. If I read the sentence properly, are you saying that spirits know that they (spirits) are there, so they don't need to prove their existence, and yet when they do want to let people know they are there, they move objects, although most people are not able to perceive the real thing.

And so the point is...?

If spirits are us but dead, there must by definition be gazillions of spirits around all the time. And that's just ex humans. What are they all doing and what is the point of them? Why are we as living humans so important that they need to hang around. Just asking, like.

[Mark]

I really want to see/feel/touch a spirit, how can I get one to show itself to me?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Go into nearest pub, ask to read label on obscure whisky bottle. Have 10 large ones - all will be revealed.

[PeckhamRose]

Look boys I don't think you're taking this discussion in the "spirit" in which it is intended.

Trying to have a serious discussion here and trying to get someone who really does believe this stuff to explain how they can be so sure. Blatantly saying "Because I know and believe and have faith" is just not enough.

No, wait, maybe it is for them.

Edited to add this excellent song DEAR GOD from XTC

[shaman]

It is difficult to explain, however culturally we in the west perceive our understanding to be true, real, scientific. However many countries and cultures have a very strong belief in the would of spirits.

The scientific view perceives the reality of many things or laws based on the observation of effect on other objects without direct evidence of existence for example white holes, likewise through observation of action and effect people have come to believe that the spirit or soul continues beyond physical life.

The numbers of spirits depends on if you believe in reincarnation most believe systems do or have done thus abalance is achieved, the debate of animal and other spirits adds to the multitude and again is effected by culture.

However these are often seen to be existing in different plains or dimensions and only interacting at occassional periods.

In fact many wonder if the existence of ghosts is some form of time slip and effect our linear understanding of time another very western concept is in fact flawed and these encounters are some form of accidental bend in time and space.

In fact most supernatural experiences could be seen this way, but I have come off topic. I myself have a practical scientific mind however for a varity of reaso0ns have followed a spiritual road in life and have come to the conclusion that all natural things have some form of energy that may continue after normal physical life is believed to have left.

My personal experience have been truely strange and have at times happened in large groups over many years so yes it is a case I believe but only after looking at other possibilities first.

[LizzygotDizzy]

Sorry Shaman, I am confused, you say you have a serious practical scientific mind, yet follow the spiritual Road, what do you get out of it then if you can scientifically explain any spiritual incidents away? Sorry to sound dim, but you say you have had personal experience as well, did you not just put that down, (on account you are a trained plumber, electrician etc. etc expert and have been to many people's homes and explained their bumps in the night away and due to plumbing etc) as one of the various causes of these things happening?

(Ngggarh! I know what I'm trying to say I just can't get it out!)

Sorry, PeckhamRose has already addressed this (although with much more clarity) in his earlier post, Page 1, apologies X

[shaman]

The point is that it is possible to have a practical scientific mind and stil experience or believe in the spiritual have seen heard felt many things that are beyond normal explaination. Bhuddists Hindu's Shinto's etc all have strong belief in the spiritual world and I understand that you will find the odd scientist following these and many other religions

[LizzygotDizzy]

Okey dokey

[PeckhamRose]

But that just leads to the question I asked at the beginning.

Which is: just because these feelings and/or "experiences" can not be scientifically explained today, does not mean they will not be explained in the future, and I gave the example of inventing gods to explain thunderstorms and rainbows on pre-scientific human.

I saw a ghost. Had him proven to me as someone who existed and died 2 years before I saw him. I could not have known it at the time. Just because I can't explain it does not mean there is life after death and I should start following some religion and/or changing my otherwise reasonable down to earth way of life. Just means it has not been explained yet.

I also think I wrote about how people who have had near death experiences, and seen the so-called White Light, have returned to health then had that same vision recreated in their brain by scientists prodding some part of their brain which is active when the body thinks it is about to die. It just needs to be scientifically explained, that's all.

Of course science may prove there IS life after death!

WARNING, THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPHS MAY UPSET THE RECENTLY BEREAVED OR RELIGIOUS.

I worked in a funeral directors a while ago and - sorry - but dead is dead. Never bothered me to be in the same room as the deceased. We are all just flesh and blood and chemicals and gas and water. Seeing how the funeral directors and their colleagues treated WITH GREAT RESPECT the bodies, even when they knew no-one else was watching, was marvellous, and of course utterly appropriate. But if more people could see dead people as a matter of course then maybe we would be a bit more kind to each other as living people and as a result religion would lose it's viral hold on our brains. If anything, the job made me more determined to live life to the full in the next 30 or so healthy years I have left.

OK YOU CAN COME BACK TO ME NOW

As far as spirit is concerned, why have not even SCIENTISTS like Richard Feynman come back and proved otherwise? They have nothing to lose: they're DEAD!

I am really interested in your points Shaman but you have to make more sense to us. When you talk of plains and dimensions, then what are you suggesting? Are you now suggesting we are on but one of millions of plains and dimensions involving all the possibilities and choices we may or may not have taken? I have read three books on shamanism and shamanistic beliefs, so I understand a little of the belief systems. Just want to hear a live shaman explain it to us.

shaman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The point is that it is possible to have a

> practical scientific mind and stil experience or

> believe in the spiritual have seen heard felt many

> things that are beyond normal explaination.

> Bhuddists Hindu's Shinto's etc all have strong

> belief in the spiritual world and I understand

> that you will find the odd scientist following

> these and many other religions

[shaman]

it is quite possible that there are endless dimensions, in my personal experience I have felt seen heard non-living human and non-human spirits both in my personnel life and my life has a shaman over 40 years since I first remember experiencing these realms.

I have seen large objects lifted across a room of people to let those know there is a spirit trying to communicate.

I have Taken sceptics to meet and touch spiritual beings and many to see and hear things that has research chemists computer designers, doctors, lawyers, journalists, psychologist etc they have never before encountered.

I have also explained away spirits has nacolepsy,drug induced hallucination for example lsd can cause ghostly experience many years after use has do some types of conventional drugs. Bad central heating and electrical discharge was the cause of the problems experienced by some of the people that have contacted me.

[Mark]

And how can I get one to show itself to me?

And if a spirit can lift a table to prove it exists, why doesn't it lift a pen and write something instead? That would be a better way of getting people to believe you exist, especially as it seems they've been trying to communicate since 1848 and have had 150 years of practice.

Shaman, would you mind if put a challenge down to you to show me a spirit? Not something that I've "never before encountered" as you mentioned before as that's different but a spirit, something that can show itself to me, a believer in many things although admittedly most of them real. Perhaps PeckhamRose and LixzzygotDizzy could be part of it too and you could show us together? Please...?

[PeckhamRose]

Yup

I am up for that.

I DO have an open mind.

I agree, if they can lift large objects then why not lift a pen and write something?

shaman writes: "I have Taken sceptics to meet and touch spiritual beings and many to see and hear things that has research chemists computer designers, doctors, lawyers, journalists, psychologist etc they have never before encountered."

When are we all available?

I am generally not available weekends, but am available day times and some evenings.

shaman? Ready for this? The rest of you?

[shaman]

In the past I have organised what I used to call fairy walks in the area with some success what is usually experienced is not the classic fairy but some visible spirits, I have done this with groups of up to ten but small numbers are preferred all that is required is open minded attitude and sense of humour these take place at night simply because the energies visibility is quite easily blotted out by light.

I usually do these at certain times of year for practical and spiritual reasons spring or early autumn.

I cannot guarantee you would all experience visual and physical phenomenon but I am confident that half of you would walk away with a puzzled expression, cameras can be used but no flash pm me.

[SteveT]

I shall watch this space with interest.

I can see a future business in the offing.......

Provided your hunt is successful shaman!

[shaman]

Am a practising shaman with over twenty years experience so already a business although priced depending on income or free the walks have always been free since i am simply introducing people to spirits on a friendly basis.

[PeckhamRose]

Nope, don't wanna fairy walk.

I want to experience THIS:

"I have Taken sceptics to meet and touch spiritual beings."

I appreciate it may not happen the first time, but I will come and second and a third and a fourth until I Do.

[shaman]

Nice to see such enthusiasm will organise later in year need to send me details fairy walk is just general term to cover a number of types of spirit

[PeckhamRose]

What details do you want me/us to send you?

Just let us know about it on this topic in this forum and we'll tell you if we can make it.

I sometimes work some evenings, but not all.

I often work some weekends, but not all.

And I am away in April and May.

If I can't make the first dates you suggest I'll try and come the second.

You are very sure that spirit exists.

It does not make sense that it does, to me.

So if you have had sceptics (and I am not sceptical, see all my postings in this topic above), see and TOUCH spiritual beings I want that experience too. Remember I have seen a ghost. I just await scientific explanation of it to catch up with my experience just as the scientists hundreds/thousands of years later arrived to explain thunder and rainbows.

Or do you still believe they're the Gods being angry?

;)

[shaman]

Please pm me with emails then when able to do will let people know. Don't believe gods are angry however just because science finds explaination does not mean that there is no spiritual element to it, must stop before Zeus get me for giving the game away:))