Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?

[Penguin68]

Ah, so the answer to the food waste is we put the bags in the tiny brown caddies and our large brown bins are taken away if we don't subscribe. Could not see that spelt out anywhere.

No, I think they will issue, on request, 'kerb-side caddies' - with about 3-4 times the capacity of the tiny kitchen caddies. And you will not be able to put any kitchen waste in a large brown bin, even if you have retained one. They will now only be for garden waste.

[mynamehere]

What a lot of plastic waste is being generated.

I thought biomass was being used for energy by Veolia. If so, charging for the one thing being put to good use seems... odd.

[Penguin68]

I thought biomass was being used for energy by Veolia. If so, charging for the one thing being put to good use seems... odd.

Veolia's finances and Southwark's are entirely separate. I assume Southwark, in determining the fee they pay Veolia will have factored in 'value' in the waste collected - of course if less garden waste is collected because of price rationing then Veolia may be able to claim a higher fee from Southwark for waste collection, depending on the terms of their outsourced deal. But the ?30 annual fee is going to Southwark as a further tax on residents, it is not going to Veolia (although if they have to incur further costs by Southwark's action they may be able to be recompensed for that). Delivery of new bins and collection of old ones, if Veolia does that, will be charged out to Southwark, I'm sure, and reasonably. But Veolia's income streams, and Southwark's are connected only through the outsourcing fee paid by one to the other.

[EDBoy]

Why did Southwark Council not wait until next year to implement this? Most residents have only just received their council tax bill for 2019/20, which makes this idea appear poorly thought out and executed. Why not say this is what we are planning to do next year and ask the 51,000 properties for their suggestions; these can then be submitted on a council web page. There should be one or two ideas that might be worth incorporating. A house with a garden would usually suggest there is more than one occupant, therefore will a kerbside caddy be sufficient for the food waste? What happens to any excess that can't put it in the brown bin properties currently have? What if my compost bin is full? If I don't want to pay for a large brown bin, what do I do if my wife receives flowers? If the council implement this charge for brown waste bins, when will they begin charging for the blue recycling bins and the green rubbish bins? Would be interesting to find out the percentage of 51,000 kerbside properties within the borough that don't make use of the garden waste service. I currently put food and garden waste together because they are both organic. Why not ask the properties if they require a brown bin and if they don't, remove it and replace with a kerbside caddy, for a one-off charge. Surely, the same Veolia truck will collect the same organic garden and food waste or, will there be one truck for each?

[diable rouge]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> So people unable to get rid of garden waste will

> Pave over their back yards or deck them.

>

> There will be less plants and flowers which will

> affect our wild life, Birds, Butterflies Bees and

> insects.

I doubt that anyone who has spent time creating a garden will then decide to pave/deck it over because of these changes, besides, the cost of paving/decking far outweighs the yearly cost of a brown bin, it would take many years to offset the cost. I expect the Council have factored this in and see gardeners as a soft target...

[cella]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> Ah, so the answer to the food waste is we put the

> bags in the tiny brown caddies and our large brown

> bins are taken away if we don't subscribe. Could

> not see that spelt out anywhere.

>

> No, I think they will issue, on request,

> 'kerb-side caddies' - with about 3-4 times the

> capacity of the tiny kitchen caddies. And you will

> not be able to put any kitchen waste in a large

> brown bin, even if you have retained one. They

> will now only be for garden waste.

Thanks - I too think that's what's meant. It doesn't actually spell that out anywhere though.

[James Barber]

The letter the council has sent out states 51,000 street properties impacted. The income expected would not just pay for the garden waste collection but also the entire foo waste collections. Effectively this proposed scheme is a tax on some who volunteer for all the food waste collections.

Councils have a duty to collect Household Waste.

The legal definition of Household Waste appears to include - https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/waste-definitions/indepth#DCAM-44402 - waste from any land associated with domestic property

Domestic Waste is defined as only waste from "private homes". But the legal definition of Private Homes appears to include their gardens.

Looks like a minefield - perhaps no one has yet legally challenged the setting of such fees.

[Penguin68]

The letter the council has sent out states 51,000 street properties impacted. The income expected would not just pay for the garden waste collection but also the entire foo waste collections. Effectively this proposed scheme is a tax on some who volunteer for all the food waste collections.

This assumes that all 51k households will opt for garden waste collection - generating an annual revenue of ?1.53m. This accounts, as far as I can see, for under 10% of payments made to Veolia by Southwark (you can google for these though very up to date figures aren't available) - although these payments may cover more than just waste collection. Assuming Veolia costs are split 50:50 between organic waste and inorganic recycling/ non recyclables (as there are two collections a week) then that ?1.53m covers under 20% of the costs of Organic recycling.

Southwark spends around ?65m on current account for Environment and Regeneration, I'm guessing no more than a third or less on waste collection.

My guess is that the ?1.53m will not cover all of Southwark's organic recycling waste collection - and that is assuming that everyone with a large brown bin will decide to pay the tax and keep their bins. And the practice of many other boroughs not to collect garden waste at all, or to charge for it, suggests that a court challenge to this would not fly.

This is not to support the proposal - which I think is ill-thought through and the processes for which appear to be stupid and costly - nor is it to support the council's clear desire to move as much revenue stream as it can off its Council Tax books to give it price-hike freedom, but I think you may have over-egged the pudding here in your analysis. Happy to stand corrected if you have access (or had access) to better Veolia contract cost figures.

[James Barber]

No, Southwark Labour/Council are not expecting all homes with gardens to pay for garden waste.

Stats I've een is average cost to collect waste per household per annum = ?38.62 and all recycling types = ?26.53 across England. So presumably being an urban area Southwark spends less than these averages. So the charge of ?30 would be roughly the cost each household incurs for all recycling collections. The charge therefore appears to be far higher than the cost of the service provided.

[dc]

So why was LibDem Kingston one of the first Boroughs in London to introduce such a charge and why is their fee (?72) almost two and a half times that proposed by Southwark? Please don?t treat us like children and do a ?let?s pretend? that your lot wouldn?t have done the same if the electors of this fine borough had seen fit to put their trust in you and your mates last May.

[cella]

Rude.

[dc]

Factual, and worthy of a considered response.

[cella]

Possibly however a more courteous manner may result in you actually getting an answer.

[dc]

I raised it already. My point is there is little correlation between the introduction of this charge and the political control of local authorities and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. There are 3 LibDem controlled councils in London and they all charge for garden waste collection. Kingston, as detailed above, Sutton which charges ?65 pa and Richmond where you have to buy a designated bin for ?28 and there is then an ongoing charge of ?35 every six months (or ?26 every six months if you?re over 75).

[matthew123]

I hope these people who come up with these ideas at the council are not getting a pay rise out of this ridiculous add on tax - yes there may be people who don't use garden waste but surely that is already reflected in the council tax bandings where you tend to have a bigger garden the higher the tax banding.

[James Barber]

Hi dc,

I've never lived or represented Kingston, Sutton, or Richmond. So I don't know their circumstances.

I would suggest most of Southwark is poorer than the boroughs you've quoted. It has higher levels of eco crime already.

So in Southwark my lot would not introduce this charge - it will depress the collection rate, some garden waste will end up in general waste stream and not be composted. This is bad for the environment in a number of ways.

But I'm unclear dc.

Do you think it the right thing to do in Southwark?

The introduction has no exceptions for people on benefits, low incomes, age, disability, anything. It's a regressive tax. It will hit people in ground floor council flats with tiny gardens. Easy to avoid the charge for those willing to put garden waste in the general green waste wheelie bins. It will collect more than the cost of all recycling collections per household that join in.

[macutd]

is it ok to use the general waste bin for a little garden least? say grass cutting

[Abe_froeman]

You'd probably have to put your mowings in a plastic bag now .

To be fair to James B, I don't recall this bin tax ever being proposed when he was a councillor so it seems very harsh to say that he would propose it now.

[nxjen]

The LibDems however have never been in overall control of Southwark Council, the closest was during the years 2002 to 2010 when they held nearly the same amount of seats as Labour. This was of course before the severe cuts to local government funding by central government so he/LibDems was not in a position to propose such a charge (a charge not a tax). I think in the present climate that if there was a LibDem Southwark Council it would be highly likely they would introduce charges for brown bin collection no matter what James B says. Ah, but he?s a politician, promises the world to get elected.

[Rosetta]

Wonder if more people will start burning their garden waste.

[JohnL]

Rosetta Wrote:

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> Wonder if more people will start burning their

> garden waste.

Compost heap - if you have a garden with room surely.

[Rosetta]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Rosetta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Wonder if more people will start burning their

> > garden waste.

>

> Compost heap - if you have a garden with room

> surely.

Can you compost hedge branches?

[easytiger]

.

[tomskip]

?30.00 p/a. ?1.15 every two weeks to have a brown wheelie bin full of garden waste taken away. Doesn't seem bad value to me.

[cella]

nxjen Wrote:

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> The LibDems however have never been in overall

> control of Southwark Council, the closest was

> during the years 2002 to 2010 when they held

> nearly the same amount of seats as Labour. This

> was of course before the severe cuts to local

> government funding by central government so

> he/LibDems was not in a position to propose such a

> charge (a charge not a tax). I think in the

> present climate that if there was a LibDem

> Southwark Council it would be highly likely they

> would introduce charges for brown bin collection

> no matter what James B says. Ah, but he?s a

> politician, promises the world to get elected.

Very cynical and pure speculation.