UK - US Extradition Treaty

[Nick1962]

I am appalled at the one sided nature of the present UK - US extradition laws. My very good friend Chris Tappin, a 65 year old, Golf Club Chairman and family man, with 2 grand children, is to all intents, a pillar of society. His lovely wife and 2 beautiful children are about to be cast into a nightmare that we can only attempt to imagine. Having run a business exporting goods accross the world, Chris has found himself in the middle of a sting, instigated by the CIA, who in an undercover operation, have uncovered that battery parts intended for Holland, were subsequently, and without Chris's knowledge, forwarded to Iran, where they have been used in the assembly of arms. Chris has been well and truly used as a scapegoat and having lost his final appeal to the European High Court, now faces extradition, un-contested by the UK government, to a US prison to stand trial. This gentle man will be manacled upon arrival and held at a high security prison in Texas until he agrees to plea bargain for his freedom. Should he stick to his innocent plea, he will face up to 35 years in prison. I am anxious to know your thoughts on the comparison between Chris and Abu Quatada, the terrorist cleric, who has yesterday, won the right to freedom in the UK, as extradition would not allow him to have a 'fair trial!

[HAL9000]

The US legal system endorses the legality of this kind of entrapment operation. I personally know several other non-US citizens that have become entangled in this sort of issue. US prosecutors are totally and utterly ruthless about these types of offences. Alas, there's not much anyone can do for him now.

I think this is an interesting aspect of Tappin's case - the link at the end says it all, imho:

The Raytheon MIM-23 Hawk is a U.S. medium range surface-to-air missile. The Hawk was initially designed to destroy aircraft and was later adapted to destroy other missiles in flight. The missile entered service in 1960, and a program of extensive upgrades has kept it from becoming obsolete. It was superseded by the MIM-104 Patriot in United States Army service by 1994. It was finally phased out of U.S. service in 2002, the last users, the U.S. Marine Corps replacing it with the man-portable infrared-guided visual range FIM-92 Stinger. The missile was also produced outside the US in Western Europe, Japan and Iran (See http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1059.html).

Source Wiki: MIM-23 Hawk

[nashoi]

Though I have a great deal of sympathy with anyone who has friends or family facing extradition to a foreign country, last year an independent review of the UK's extradition arrangements found no evidence that the UK/US arrangement was imbalanced. You can download the full report here.

The United States/United Kingdom Treaty23

1.20 We have concluded that the United States/United Kingdom Treaty does not operate in

an unbalanced manner. The United States and the United Kingdom have similar but

different legal systems. In the United States the Fourth Amendment to the

Constitution ensures that arrest may only lawfully take place if the probable cause test

is satisfied: in the United Kingdom the test is reasonable suspicion. In each case it is

necessary to demonstrate to a judge an objective basis for the arrest.

1.21 In our opinion, there is no significant difference between the probable cause test and

the reasonable suspicion test.

1.22 In the case of extradition requests submitted by the United States to the United

Kingdom, the information within the request will satisfy both the probable cause and

the reasonable suspicion tests.

1.23 In the case of extradition requests submitted by the United Kingdom to the United

States the request will contain information to satisfy the probable cause test.

1.24 There is no practical difference between the information submitted to and from the

United States.

[Huguenot]

Everything about this is unlikely.

The post was written by a PR team, the prose is a carefully articulated emotional manipulation 'this gentle man will be manacled on arrival'. The language is unusual and deliberately provocative.

A small businessman, if he claims to be that, will always know who is signing the cheques. Things don't get 'diverted'. They get bought and sold on. If that was the case he wouldn't be subject to a sting, it wouldn't be necessary.

It's entirely possible Nick, that you believe what you're saying (even though it's a copy amd paste job), but you're either a sucker yourself, or you're trying to sucker this forum.

None of this is very attractive.

BTW, I'm not a fan of either the US or extradition, so steer clear of abuse on that level. ;-)

[El Pibe]

I recall reading an article that followed up previous lost extraditions that used claims of orange jump suits and manacles, and most were actually granted bail. In a couple of cases they were under house arrest, though paid for by the state and in nice hotels. As these were white collar crimes they all went to low security prisons.

Noone was forced to don either of the above.

ACtually I guess a murderer might, but they probably don't have campaigns trying to elicit sympathy for them.

Again I sympathise, especially in cases where what has been done simply isnt a crime in this country (providing miltary products to Iran would be here too), but nothings going to be achieved using such hyperbole however well intentioned.

*edited after a bit of a ponder (and his orchestra)*

[Nick1962]

Well Huguenot. I bow to your greater knowledge of the US legal system. I am simply a very good friend of Chris Tappin from my time spent living next door to him in Kent. He is a 'gentle man' and his wife, the former captain of Kent Ladies Golf, is a gentle woman. They are dear friends of mine and dreading the fact that they may never get to spend quality time in the UK during their retirement, together. I suggest that before commenting (negatively) on all the posts on the EDF, you furnish yourself with facts of the cases you are commenting on. My initial comments may have sounded like a 'cut and paste' job but I am actually quite eloquent and more than capable of posting a sensible, balanced piece, without having to crib it! Chris's mistake, having been in the business for 35 years, was to trust the clients he was dealing with. In this instance the 'sting' being operated by the US resulted in dreadful consequences for Chris and his family. The use of manacles and jumpsuits is sadly part of the 'shock treatment' used on all extradited prisoners in the state of Texas, where Chris will be held. Having spent the last two years living in Naples Florida, these cases are often reported and images shown around the US. Not hyperbole. just facts!

[Nick1962]

'It is much easier to extradite people from the UK than the US because the US does not need to present evidence to a British court to request extradition.

Conversely, the UK must provide "sufficient evidence to establish probable cause" in order to secure the extradition of an American citizen.

DOESN'T SEEM FAIR TO ME GUYS!!...

[HAL9000]

@ Nick1962

Life is unfair on many, many levels.

Your friend will negotiate a plea bargain. He will be sentenced to two or three years (like his co-defendants but even less if he agrees to put someone else in the frame). After a few months he'll apply to serve the rest of his sentence in the UK. The application will be granted. A short while later (if he behaves himself) the UK prison service will release him on parole. He is likely to be out within a year or two at most - if he works the system.

By the way, the manacles and orange jump suits are just for show - US law enforcement agencies think perp walks act as a deterrent.

[New Nexus]

Yes the US Extradition Treaty is unfair and unbalanced the lack of prima facie needed is above and beyond a joke.

And with the stealth signing of the S. 1867: National Defense Authorization Act it is only going to get worst. Signed in to law 31st December 2011

The US Justice Department and State Department got fed-up waiting for extradition and extraordinary rendition process to work, so they now have NDAA.

And if you think this does not effect the UK and other countries, take a look at the act.

CIA and NSA have a long history of sting operations that pull in bystanders.

I would not bet on FOIA request for defense - as this will be blocked by patriot act or end up on the Q drive.

[Nick1962]

I think that is what we are all hoping for - Thanks for the re-assurance.

[Magpie]

The results of the independent review have been questions - to the extent that Nick Clegg has called for a second review, and a number of MPs (from all parties) are continuing to campaign for a change in the treaty. In practice vastly more UK citizens have been extradited to the US than vice versa - the failure to renegotiate the treaty - which was a manifesto pledge - is a significant black mark against the government.

[El Pibe]

"In practice vastly more UK citizens have been extradited to the US than vice versa"

I'd be interested to see the raw numbers on this. This would suggest that uk citizens are more likely to commit crimes against/in/contrary to the US than vice versa, which would be common sense really given our more cosmopolitan outlook and their more parochial, leave alone the population difference.

Also the UK has turned down a number of US requests under the treaty, the US has yet to turn down a single UK request in the other direction.

Of course I'm for a balanced treaty, but this topic always seems to involve a hysterical pitch out of all proportion to the actual practical applications in the real world.

[nashoi]

"In practice vastly more UK citizens have been extradited to the US than vice versa"

Do you mean this precisely as you've written it, or are you referring to the total number of people extradited to the USA from the UK and vice versa? The majority of people we extradite from the US are UK citizens. Either way I think the term "vastly more" is inappropriate given the numbers we are talking about.

The total number extradited to the US is less than double the number coming the other way. Given relative population sizes you can hardly say that constitutes imbalance.

"the lack of prima facie needed is above and beyond a joke."

Care to be more specific? The removal of the need for prima facie evidence is said to have removed an imbalance in the opposite direction. The same rules apply to New Zealand, Australia and Canada, are you suggesting the US is less democratic or trustworthy than them?

[New Nexus]

nashoi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "the lack of prima facie needed is above and

> beyond a joke."

>

> Care to be more specific? The removal of the need

> for prima facie evidence is said to have removed

> an imbalance in the opposite direction. The same

> rules apply to New Zealand, Australia and Canada,

> are you suggesting the US is less democratic or

> trustworthy than them?

Unfortunately the US is no longer a democracy it has become a cleptocracy

As for the US being trustworthy, I would refer you to;

Patriot Act (H.R. 3162 )

Homeland Security Act (H.R. 5005)

National Defense Authorization Act (S.1867)

(Proposed) The Enemy Expatriation Act (S.1698/H.R.3166)

Suspension of Posse Comitatus Act

US Star chamber

The above speaks less and less about trustworthiness and more about treason.

There is no bill of rights - there is no constitution, they have been sacrifice on the altar of the phony war on terror and Zbigniew Brzezinski Eurasia plan.

[El Pibe]

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[New Nexus]

Your self-portrait, how touching.

[Loz]

1/10 on the snappy-comeback-ometer.

[El Pibe]

"Ooh a picture of your momma" would have been better, and in keeping with your strange preoccupation with the united states.

Still a 2/10 mind, but that's double the score!!

[New Nexus]

Grown-ups talking dear ? go have a juice box and play with the other children.

[El Pibe]

A juice box?!? How do you make a box from juice? Is this some secret NSA technology you're not sharing with us?

[New Nexus]

And again the usual suspects divert and subvert the topic with their silly child like comments.

p.s.

?your strange preoccupation with the united states?

The topic is (US Extradition Treaty) Daaaaaaa

[El Pibe]

But using terminology like 'juice box' in a south east london forum just seems a bit odd!

You wouldn't be telling me to 'have a chai' if we were discussing whether the much touted emergence of India as a superpower is a false dawn, would you?

Like I say, weird obsession.

[New Nexus]

Please carry on gathering your information from East-Enders, The Only Way Is Essex ? the presstitute news-corp, fame academy Etc, Etc. and leave the grown-up thinking to others

[El Pibe]

You don't have many friends*, do you :-/

*people you do raids with in World of Warcraft don't count.

[New Nexus]

I refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago