Announcement about the Goose Green fence

[Mark]

I've just received the following from Southwark Council and thought I would share it with you (in a nutshell, the green fence is to be removed for a trial period of 6 months)

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Statement issued by Cllr Paul Noblet:

It has become apparent that many local residents have been unhappy with the installation of the new fence that effectively divides Goose Green in two, with the design of new entrances into the space, and with the layout and design of signs and bins.

The Council has consulted extensively on all of these issues. The majority view expressed through the questionnaire and at the public meeting was that the new fence should be removed and that the Green should not be sub-divided at all for a trial period. The Council has resolved to remove the fence for a trial period of six months. In arriving at this decision, the Council is trying to reconcile the (sometimes conflicting) views of various stakeholders and interests groups including people with children, dog walkers and local residents with an interest in the history and management of the Green.

At the end of the six month trial period a further review will be undertaken. A further series of options will be considered, including (but not necessarily limited to) the installation of a new fence (in keeping with the current boundary fence) at a position to be agreed to create a dog exercise area. This will only be enforceable through the creation of a ?Dog Control Order? local to Goose Green to define how dogs and dog owners use the site.

During the six month period and in order to inform its future decision, the Council will carefully monitor the use of the site including:

? The number of Fixed Penalty Notices being issued in respect of dog fouling

? The number of complaints received about the new layout and management of the site

? The Council will also instigate a number of responsible dog ownership initiatives over this period.

If you wish to comment on these proposals, you can contact the Council through the following channels:

E-mail [email protected]

[email protected] (Parks and Open Spaces Manager)

[email protected] (Community Outreach Officer, Parks)

Paul Noblet, Acting Executive Member for Environment. [email protected]

Ward Councillors Cllr Peter John, [email protected]

Cllr Jenny Jones, [email protected]

Cllr Veronica Ward, [email protected]

Phone Environment Contact Centre ? 020 75252000

THANK YOU.

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[cdonline]

Wouldn't it be easier if they completely remove the fence, as they did at the bottom of Peckham Rye? In that case, the fences seemed to indicate that this was an area for dogs to do their business rather than a place for people to enjoy.

[mamafeelgood]

sorry but i actually like the dog free bit. i wouldn't care about dogs but i'm sorry not all owners 'scoop the poop' and it's nice to have a section that, do i dare say, i felt happy letting my kids run around that was fenced off from the exits onto the roads themselves.

[Scruffy Mummy]

I totally agree Mamafeelgood. I made this point in the consultation but I think there is a strong lobby group against the fence on aesaetic reasons - mostly probably those without kids who have lots of time and energy to attend public meetings to make their voices heard. I think what will happen is that no one will enjoy the Green except dog users. Who is going to want to sit on the grass with young children/toddlers with the worry that they will toddle off into the path of a bounding dog?? And the point is - even if someone scoops poop, the residue can linger on! So basically, I think it'll be an end to parents sitting on the green, under the trees in sunny days with the toddlers safety toddling about the trees. Shame but I guess the people are happier that the ugly fence will be gone than people enjoying the green

[boosboss]

Scruffy Mummy Wrote:

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> I think what will happen

> is that no one will enjoy the Green except dog

> users. Who is going to want to sit on the grass

> with young children/toddlers with the worry that

> they will toddle off into the path of a bounding

> dog?? And the point is - even if someone scoops

> poop, the residue can linger on! So basically, I

> think it'll be an end to parents sitting on the

> green, under the trees in sunny days with the

> toddlers safety toddling about the trees. Shame

> but I guess the people are happier that the ugly

> fence will be gone than people enjoying the green

Think about it really! Goose Green was used plenty before the fence, the same as every other green space open to the public across the country. It won't be an end to parents using the green and it won't be an end to people enjoying it! People enjoyed open spaces just as much as before scooping became a trend, then legal requirement (a positive one IMO). Is this dog owner bashing ever going to stop? In Peckham Rye park, there's a fenced and gated dog free picnic area, but it seems to be just too much hassle for some people to close the gates behind them, probably the very same people that moan when a dog goes in through the gate they'd left open.

As for the GG fence, whilst ugly it did have it's advantages. Perhaps yet more money could be spent by Southwark Council replacing it with another one :-S

[Scruffy Mummy]

When my brother came over from Canada, staying with me in Canada he was pretty shocked at the state of the sidewalks/pavements and commented 'Don't people around here clean up after their dogs???' That said it all really about dog mess in East Dulwich (and all over Londond really). I like dogs and I do know responsible dog owners. But personally, I'm sick of the mess around the streets and parks of East Dulwich - it's depressing that one of the key lessons I have to teach my toddler about walking along the pavement is about avoiding dog mess.

And, I have lived in the area pre and post the fence and I noticed a marked increase in the use of the Green after the fence - mainly by people in the fenced in area. While parks such as Dulwich Park and Peckham Rye are big enough for people to find safe spaces for relaxing and enjoying (with or without kids - there were plenty of sunbathers who enjoyed that area), Goose Green is so small that it's difficult for someone with an inquistive toddler to truly relax in an unfenced area. Also, there is not enough space when you factor in the dogs as well - I think you need a fence to allow people to enjoy the space. Otherwise, it just becomes a quick short cut (or not, if you notice a pit-bull or two zooming about near the path!)

[Louisa]

If you think Dog owners tend to be irresponsible in the UK, maybe you should have a trip to certain other EU countries where the streets are absolutely smoothered in dog poo. France is a good example - much worse than any of the streets I can think of locally.

I also think that again, dare I say it, this is probably a class issue again rearing it's ugly head. Goose Green was long used by sensible dog owners for years without a stupid boundary, and people took their kids onto the green during summer to kick a ball about and no fuss was made at all. The green was never very dirty and i'm afraid those of you who think that a little mess in a park is something to attend a public meeting over need to find something more constructive to do with your time! Since gentrification, the clapham brigade seem to think that any hint of a 'former working class neighbourhood' should be completely removed. This here is a good example of how the area has changed so much. I dont see this sort of fuss at Burgess Park or Nunhead Green.

Louisa.

[peckhamboy]

If you think Dog owners tend to be irresponsible in the UK, maybe you should have a trip to certain other EU countries where the streets are absolutely smoothered in dog poo. France is a good example - much worse than any of the streets I can think of locally.

I also think that again, dare I say it, this is probably a class issue again rearing it's ugly head. Goose Green was long used by sensible dog owners for years without a stupid boundary, and people took their kids onto the green during summer to kick a ball about and no fuss was made at all. The green was never very dirty and i'm afraid those of you who think that a little mess in a park is something to attend a public meeting over need to find something more constructive to do with your time! Since gentrification, the clapham brigade seem to think that any hint of a 'former working class neighbourhood' should be completely removed. This here is a good example of how the area has changed so much. I dont see this sort of fuss at Burgess Park or Nunhead Green.

Louisa.

What a load of crap (excuse the pun). In what way is this a "class issue"? Are you trying to suggest that leaving dog mess all over the place is a positive aspect of working class life? I suspect that a large number of people who consider themselves working class would take exception to being portrayed in that way. And whilst I agree that France has a problem with dog mess as well, I'm not convinced that it's any worse than here.

Basically, a handful of anti-social and/or lazy dog-owners make the daily walk to work a rather unpleasant obstacle course and I'm not sure why you would want to defend their right to leave mess on the pavements. Maybe if it was on your doorstep every morning you would feel differently.

[Mark]

absolute rubbish Louisa, it has nothing to do with class. If you had ever attended one of the Goose Green public meetings (which were about more than just dog mess) then you would see that there was no class issue involved. I would encourage people to ignore that last post, it has nothing to with the Green, it's just a rant about class being a cause of dog pooh and therefore dilutes the real discussion about the fence. Please Mr Admin, if possible can you make sure this thread is not hijacked by irrelevant posts.

Would a voluntary area for dogs work? E.g. Please try and keep dogs to (a designated and shown on a small map) side of the path

[Asset]

I agree with you Peckhamboy, although France is definitely worse than here.

[peckhamboy]

Well, Paris maybe. Although there are certain areas of ED that give it a damn good run for its money. Unfortunately, I think my morning route has a significant overlap with the daily routine of one of the worst offenders (whose dog seems frequently to be a little poorly) so maybe I've got a bit of a jaundiced view...

[Keef]

Not just Paris, you should see the state of the otherwise lovely Bordeaux! Maybe I'm just missing something, but I have to say I rarely notice dog mess on the streets, and think that most owners are being responsible. I remember as a kid walking down Felbrig Road to school in the morning, and there was loads of the stuff! Don't see that at all now, in fact, maybe it's because it's actually quite rare that people notice it if there is a random turd steaming on the pavement. With regards the green, I don't really have a preference either way, although a fence does stop kids running off which has to be a good thing.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Peckhamboy - if it's v. runny poo then it's probably foxes.

I think it makes more sense to keep the fence (or a prettier version) but make the current dog free area for dogs and leave the path and the rest for everyone else. If dogs are on the path side, then they should be kept on a lead.

This means that 1) stupid dogs don't run into the road because the gates have been left open and 2) people who are scared of dogs don't have loose ones running up to them and 3) hopefully poo won't then be a problem on the path (not infallible I realise).

I would also suggest that all the gates have a self-closing mechanism since people seem too lazy to shut them (obviously with soundproofing so nearby residents aren't bothered) which will help with dogs/toddlers which I know in an ideal world would be kept under control, but accidents/distractions happen.

[cdonline]

One of the things that I have noticed at Peckham Rye is that less dog walkers now use the bottom of the park and do not let their dogs of the leads, I presume because of the road.

I can understand that the fence provides some safety for children, but at the same time some of those with dogs seem oblivious to others by letting their dogs run about and foul. I would personally (as somebody without kids) have an area that was not covered in dog shit and dogs running around.

I think it would change people's attitude the Green as a public area for all the community to enjoy.

[peckhamboy]

Trust me, it's not foxes. Size and colour both point towards a dog being responsible.

I'm all for there being a separate dog area on Goose Green where they can do what they want and if that means fences that's fine by me. And, like cdonline, I don't have kids myself but would much prefer to have an area that I knew was free of dog mess. Every now again it would be nice to be able to walk somewhere and feel it was safe to look up at my surroundings rather than carefully scanning the floor.

[Mark]

I agree that there should be a dog pooh free area, my understanding is that there are the following options:

1) Keep it as is

2) Remove all the fences

3) Remove the current dividing fence

4) Replace the current dividing fence with a more aesthetically pleasing fence

5) Make the lower section (by the roundabout) dogs only, divided by a fence in-keeping with the perimeter fence. This was proposed by the council previously (see the attached PDF)

(please note, this is my own list and I may have missed some options so please let me know if I have)

I like option 5) but I also think that the temporary solution 3) is quite good so that after 6 months if/when people complain about the dog pooh everywhere the dog owners have no-one to blame except themselves (and their dogs) if a fenced off area is created.

Although of course the ideal situation would be for it to be all open and no dog pooh left on the ground but that's not possible. Or is it?

[boosboss]

Mark Wrote:

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> I like option 5) but I also think that the

> temporary solution 3) is quite good so that after

> 6 months if/when people complain about the dog

> pooh everywhere the dog owners have no-one to

> blame except themselves (and their dogs) if a

> fenced off area is created.

I take it you mean the irresponsible ones?

[Mark]

yes, and it might give the responsible ones more back up when they have a go at the irresponsible ones in a "please pick up your dog's pooh otherwise people will complain and we'll lose this large dog exercise area" kind of way

[seanmlow]

That fence looks bloody awful.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

One further thing about the current fence - little dogs can go through it and big dogs easily clear it - doh!

[spadetownboy]

Asset Wrote:

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> I agree with you Peckhamboy, although France is

> definitely worse than here.

im off to calais tomorrow to fetch the xmas booze,i will report back on the present state of the pavement.

[Mark]

spadetownboy Wrote:

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>... i will report back on the present state of the pavement.

and check out their parks as well, do they 'ave 'orrible fonces ronning througggh them?

[AllforNun]

How on earth does this council get to just pull money out of it's arse when it comes to ED and it liberal Democratic majority ? It's wasted over ?150000 on that bleedin abomination which even Gordon Brown could have seen from the original drawings was about as in keeping with the park as a giant dome for the new millenium ! Nunhead lane needs it's regeneration money now you bleedin southwark town hall social clubbers - the shops are going to the wall and your not even trying to help them out .............

[Frisco]

The twisted logic of dog crap being a class issue in ED beggars belief.

It's only a class issue in that, in the past, it's been the traditionally working class areas that have had to put up with it, while other areas have had it cleaned up. No-one, regardless of their social 'class' should have to put up with pavements or parks covered in dog crap (as they used to be), and especially not in areas where children play, and it can be very easily avoided.

The fact is that dog crap in the streets and in parks has become an issue in terms of its social unacceptability across the whole country since the early 1990s, and the cleaner streets initiatives of that time, and the social class of an area or the people who are affected is completely irrelevant.

Having said that, I am not anti-dog by any means, but with dog ownership comes responsibility, part of which is to make sure it goes in the right place and to clean up after it.

[Cora]

Just want to thank Mark for giving all the contact details to contact with opinions on this.

It has kicked me into action and I will certainly be writing to give my support, as a mother, for maintaining a dog-free zone. I think that the pro-zone voices have probably been relatively quiet up until now as we gained a dog-free zone - something that was positive for us, whereas the dog-walkers had their area cut by half - something that would understandably cause friction. But it is a compromise....

Just as the dog-walkers want the whole park, how would they feel if we said we'd like the whole park dog-free? Just a thought.

As for the fence...it's not great or subtle but not worth wasting money on now it's there....