Right Wingers are less intelligent...

[indiepanda]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> I remember hearing a Tony Blair speech at the

> British Library where he talked about the British

> economy, the fourth biggest in the world, being

> resilient enough to beat the recession. So Gordon

> Brown was confident enough to say a UK recession

> was unlikely.

But he didn't turn out to be right though. Which in my book is more important than being confident about it!

[Undisputedtruth]

???? Wrote:

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> yup and there are litterrally 100,000s of

> them...oh, hang on a minute, actually there's a

> few thousand but let's proxy them together with

> the evil Bankers for all Private Sector workers as

> our avoid any debate on the Public Sector tactic

I can't see a public sector worker getting the same amount of pension like Godwin's ?20k a week, can you, Quids?

@indiepanda,

Gordon Brown got hit by one of the biggest financial crisis but the Tory governments of 80s & 90s couldn't handle a little increase in oil prices before the economy went topsy turvy.

[indiepanda]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> @indiepanda,

>

> Gordon Brown got hit by one of the biggest

> financial crisis but the Tory governments of 80s &

> 90s couldn't handle a little increase in oil

> prices before the economy went topsy turvy.

You say "got hit" as if it was nothing to do with him whatsoever. Try reading the reports on what happened at Northern Rock - a complete failure of the regulator to spot how badly managed they were. That's the regulator that was answerable to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Now who was that during much of the period in which they were running their dangerous growth strategy. Yep, your genius Gordon Brown.

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/library/communication/pr/2008/028.shtml

You seem to be completely unable to admit the Labour government ever made any mistakes, and frankly if you as a left winger are trying to disprove the hypothesis it's the right wingers that are less intelligent, you are doing a very good job of it.

You've willfully misunderstood Quids point too, which I think is that public sector workers mainly have defined benefit pensions where the pensions they are paid are not affected by the value of the stock and bond markets over the time they are working and at retirement, but most private sector workers have to take their chances with their poxy defined contribution pensions which are largely at the mercy of the markets.

The pensions of the likes of Fred the Shred (who was given his knighthood when Labour were in power... so surely you think he deserves that pension given his "services" to banking??!) are outliers that are far from representative of what the average public sector worker can look forward to.

That's those pensions that were undermined by the dot com bubble bursting which didn't affect the UK economy? Except of course it did, helping to create massive pension deficits which pushed most private sector companies to close their defined benefit pension schemes to new members and allowing them to set up new defined contribution schemes, passing the risks off to their members.

[Undisputedtruth]

I don't believe you have a global understanding of the Financial Crisis and so you' re pitching your prejudice against Gordon Brown instead. How naive. Northern Rock had suffered funding liquidity issues and this only occurred when the wholesale financial institutions in the US refused to lend. Hardly Gordon Brown's fault, don't you think? Unless he had a crystal ball.;-)

Restructuring the FSA may not have altered the sequence of events for Northern Rock in any case. Here's an extract from the FSA internal report ?the Board also noted that, even if supervision had been carried out at a level acceptable to the FSA, it was by no means the case that that would have changed the outcome.?

Well, I keep hearing from Quids how the Private Sector is superior to the Public Sector but it seems they're not capable enough to sort out their own pension schemes that are robust enough to overcome market fluctuations.

It was Lord Myners who okayed the Fred Goodwin's pension deal which resulted in widespread condemnation in the Labour Party. Your assertion that the Labour Party agreed Goodwin's pension is totally wrong.

[Damian H]

UDT just won't miss an opportunity to show how utterly ignorant he is about just about everything (except perhaps PowerPoint and HTML).

Far-sighted people (including many I know) with a capitalist orientation had seen years ago how Brown was setting things up for a catastophe. A close friend of mine told me this repeatedly a number of years ago - he despsed Brown for his deception, arrogance and incompetence. He stated very simply that the UK economy developed under Brown was a house of cards. He didn't know what it would be that would collapse it but any minor financial crisis would be amplified to a critical point by Brown's folly.

Turned out he was absolutely right. The crisis that tipped things over was the sub-prime market mess (caused significantly, as pointed out elsewhere, by UDT's Ordinary Joe friends lying, cheating and defrauding to get products they couldn't pay) and that brought the whole house down.

Of course UDT can't view the world ecept in black and white, 'four legs good, two legs bad' terms, so he can't see that responsibility can be placed anywhere else than at the feet of 'evil bankers' and directors - the very people who have probably created the jobs, wealth, opportunities etc that allow him to make a living (whatever that may be).

His is a form of madness.

[indiepanda]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> It was Lord Myners who okayed the Fred Goodwin's

> pension deal which resulted in widespread

> condemnation in the Labour Party. Your assertion

> that the Labour Party agreed Goodwin's pension is

> totally wrong.

Tell me, can you actually read?? I actually said that the labour party gave him his knighthood for services to banking not that they granted him his pension.

I understand perfectly well what happened in the financial crisis. At it's most basic level its about too many people / companies (and now it turns out countries too) borrowing money they couldn't afford to pay back and the banks turning out to be far to eager to make profits that they were too lazt to do sufficient due diligence to check they were really going to get their money back.

Where it got more complicated was all the securitisation arrangements where that debt was packaged up and sold on multiple different times and the banks / insurers that bought it didn't do enough due diligence to work out that what they bought was not a AAA asset but a house of cards that could come tumbling down. Once the penny dropped all the banks got scared still of lending to each other, hence the crisis.

If you had bothered to read anything I have written properly you'd have noticed I haven't once claimed Gordon Brown was to blame for the crisis, only pointed out that he

a) had arrogantly assumed he had put an end to boom and bust so spent in a way that one might not consider advisable if the party was going to end at some point in the future. I think even he has admitted now he was wrong to assume he had ended boom and bust, so he doesn't need your defense on that point. (He might disagree that he would have spent less if knew the money was going to run out - but I doubt many would have impressed if he did)

b) was not completely innocent of any involvement in creating the crisis. You seem to want to give him credit for everything good that ever happened to the UK economy while he was in power either at the Treasury or as Prime Minister, but suggest he had no part at all in anything that went wrong. Again, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't make that claim for himself, he might have shown a lack of humility in his early days but I think he has shown a little more modesty in recent years.

As for NR, it shouldn't even have been legal in the UK for mortgage companies to be lending people 125% of the value of the house - yet for some time after Northern Rock were receiving emergency support from the Treasury, they were still offering a product which allowed customers to borrow up to 125% the property value. I think most people would think at the least a cap should have been set at 95% LTV for new mortgage offers as soon as they needed external support.

c) that not all of the additional money pumped into the public sector seemed to generate improvements in the service provided by the public sector - i.e. Gordon didn't always get value for our money.

If you see this as being prejudiced against Gordon Brown you have an odd understanding of what the word means.

[El Pibe]

Not to mention his PFI shame.

His promise to balance the books was mostly achieved through costly PFI deals that pushed spending off balance sheet but will continue to cost the taxpayer billions of wasted pounds over the next twenty odd years thanks to some of the appalling agreements signed.

Of course the change in public accounting rules towards the end of his time as Chancellor meant that these were pushed back on balance sheet and he failed in his promise despite his attempts at disingenuity.

Here are some useful snippets. ?229 billion quid and ?300 plug sockets, how very prudent Gordon.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-does-pfi-offer-the-taxpayer-value-for-money/5705

http://www.david-morrison.org.uk/pfi/pfi-wastes-money.htm

[Undisputedtruth]

Neither the Conservatives or the Labour Party makes a decision on Honours. There is a process in place where a committee of mostly non-party officials, draws up the Honours list before giving the Queen & PM final approval. To say that the Labour Party gave Godwin his Knighthood is simplistic thinking and so so wrong.

Nearly there on the Banking crisis, Indiepanda, unlike Damian! The ordinary folks couldn't afford to pay their mortgage as interests rates went up in the US. The banks geared their securitisation products so instead of multiplying their profits they multiplied their losses. Credit Raters didn't carry out their due dilligence checks either.

Gordon Brown was a great Chancellor who just happenened to be caught out by a once in a lifetime gobal crisis. How many Western countries actually predicted the crisis? None, I tell you. The Tories weren't even skillful enough to avoid 80s & 90s recessions caused by a modest increase in oil prices. Our Schools and Hospitals decayed under the Tories. Despite all these cuts made by the Tories they only managed to produce a pitiful surplus in their budgets.

I fully agree that there should be caps placed on mortgage lending but I suspect this would go against the Tory's free market principle where it's up to the lenders to decide what is appropriate lending. While you may think that 125% lending was a high figure then you may not be aware that there was talk of the 100 year mortgage, a type of product found in Japan.

There are some people who feel that there have been improvements to Schools and Hospitals. I used to hear stories how some of these public services were closed to the public due to leaky roofs because the Tory government didn't gave them enough money. I guess you want a return to the dark ages of the Tories when the streets were filthy, burglaries on the high, violent strikes, high unemployment, business collapsing, etc.

I think prejudice is the right word to use as you're viewing Gordon Brown's legacy through the Tory lense.

[Huguenot]

At what point does a critique of Brown (much of which Brown himself would agree with) consitute a demand for "a return to the dark ages of the Tories when the streets were filthy, burglaries on the high, violent strikes, high unemployment, business collapsing, etc"?

Only when you're stuggling with one brain cell being pushed around in a broken wheelbarrow masquerading as 'reason'.

[El Pibe]

As you can see from above, our children's shiny new schools will cost a great deal more than they should have and will be paid for, well, by them. Tough luck really.

What Indiepanda was trying to tell you was that our financial institutions had no reslience because the regulatory environment encouraged them to run high risk strategies. It was an infamous memo by Blair that actually stated that he felt the current regulatory regime was strangling the city, and in this he and Brown happened to concur (a rare moment for those two!!).

Thus the FSA became toothless and the banks were encouraged to sail close to the wind because risk management meant that nothing could ever fail again, honest guv (whoops).

This was of course entirely predictable and predicted many, many times by many people.

As stated by several contributors, noone knew quite when or why, or in fact just how bad it would be, but that it was going to happen.

Contrast that with Spain's regulatory environment, much more risk averse. No Spanish banks collapsed or needed nationailsation. In fact Santander has grown into one of the biggest banks in the wolrd by buying up troubled banks on the cheap post the collapse. Smart.

In this Brown and Blair were not well meaning sensible overseers who got caught out by the perfect storm, but were actually the enablers goading everyone on and were utterly hoist by their own petard.

My only regret is that Blair had gone and was able to enjoy a big dose of schadenfreude as he watch Brown appreciate the full horror of how poisoned the chalice he'd been yearning for for so long, really was!!!!

The electorate quite rightly ejected him from power.

as an aside mortgage interest rates have been going down in the US since 2006 and base rate has been practically 0 for yonks.

I thought you were laughing because of your US interest rate pegged mortgage!!! ;-P

[Loz]

indiepanda Wrote:

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> As for NR, it shouldn't even have been legal in the UK for mortgage companies to be lending people

> 125% of the value of the house - yet for some time after Northern Rock were receiving emergency

> support from the Treasury, they were still offering a product which allowed customers to

> borrow up to 125% the property value. I think most people would think at the least a cap should have

> been set at 95% LTV for new mortgage offers as soon as they needed external support.

Having looked into one of these about 10 years ago (then deciding they were not a good idea and getting a normal mortgage) they were not, strictly speaking, a 125% mortgage. They were two loans wrapped up: a 95% mortgage secured on the property and a 30% personal loan.

Still a bad idea though.

[Otta]

My only regret is that Blair had gone and was able to enjoy a big dose of schadenfreude as he watch Brown appreciate the full horror of how poisoned the chalice he'd been yearning for for so long, really was!!!!

What El Pibe said, x 100!!!

I do have some symp[athy with Brown, I think he took A LOT of nasty shit from a lot of corners, some of which was just disgusting. And I think Blair played a blinder, getting out and leeting Brown take most of the blame for the mess that he'd been every bit as responsible for.

I voted for Brown, I never voted for Blair.

I'd be very interested to see where we'd be today had Cameron & Osborne been in charge for the noughties though! Of course, we'll never know, but I think we'd be in at least as bad a mess.

[El Pibe]

Seeing as Osborne has been flirting with the idea of even lighter regulation I suspect we'd be in exactly the same place in terms of the big bust.

The public purse may have been healthier, though i also suspect that UDT might be right (even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day) in that the trade-off for that would be crumbling public infrastructure.

Apart from roads, we'd have EVEN more of them!!!

As indiepanda said, there's practically no daylight between the two any more.

[indiepanda]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> Nearly there on the Banking crisis, Indiepanda,

> unlike Damian! The ordinary folks couldn't afford

> to pay their mortgage as interests rates went up

> in the US. The banks geared their securitisation

> products so instead of multiplying their profits

> they multiplied their losses. Credit Raters didn't

> carry out their due dilligence checks either.

I was well aware of those points too, but thanks for continuing to patronise me as if I wasn't. Just because I don't feel the need to spout everything I know to prove my understanding doesn't mean I am not aware.

> I fully agree that there should be caps placed on

> mortgage lending but I suspect this would go

> against the Tory's free market principle where

> it's up to the lenders to decide what is

> appropriate lending. While you may think that 125%

> lending was a high figure then you may not be

> aware that there was talk of the 100 year

> mortgage, a type of product found in Japan.

Talk isn't the same as it actually happening - and 100 year mortgages seems singularly daft - what would you do? Pass them onto your children after you die. Pensions may have been comprehensively messed up by higher than expected increases in life expectancy, but we aren't going to be living long enough to pay those off.

Not all people with right wing views think that markets should be left entirely to their own devices. I think this latest crisis has proved beyond all doubt that is a mistake. Let's face it, company leaders are heavily influenced by short term goals - what the share price is, this years bonuses and not long term goals like sustainable profits and treating customers in an ethical way.

> There are some people who feel that there have

> been improvements to Schools and Hospitals. I used

> to hear stories how some of these public services

> were closed to the public due to leaky roofs

> because the Tory government didn't gave them

> enough money. I guess you want a return to the

> dark ages of the Tories when the streets were

> filthy, burglaries on the high, violent strikes,

> high unemployment, business collapsing, etc.

And yet again you've failed to read what I said. I commented they didn't always get the best value for money in their investments which isn't hardly the same as suggesting every penny they spent was wasted. I don't think the money spent on schools necessarily worked as it should have done. Strikes me the focus has been on teaching children to pass exams for league tables which has created perverse incentives for schools to push less able children into what they can do well in - lots of easy supposedly GCSE equivalent subjects that aren't useful, rather than what they will need to get on it the world.

Equally, I am not at all happy with what the Tories are up to with the NHS - change is needed but they seem to be going at it like a bull in a china shop and not listening to the medics concerns which is never going to work. Any fool should know you need to work with the people in a system to change it not try impose changes from above.

As for filthy streets - last time I recall seeing truly filthy streets was in the winter of discontent when rubbish was piled up for weeks in the public car parks in my town... Now I was very young at the time, but even I know that wasn't when a Tory government was in power.

Incidentally, I though a lot of the economic problems in the 90s were related to the ridiculous decision to enter the ERM at an overvalued exchange rate in the late eighties and the resulting hikes in interest rates to keep us in the ERM, leading to significant problems for homeowners and the crash in mortgage market, rather than oil.

Leading on from that, one thing I would praise Brown highly for is not taking us into the Euro. I couldn't believe the number of people who thought we should on the grounds "it'd be nice to go on holiday without having to change your money" or that anyone who opposed it was just a jingoistic little islander who couldn't give up the ?. Don't think they are quite on the same page now...

I find it quite amusing that you accuse me of Tory prejudice against Brown when it seems you are totally prejudiced against all things Tory. As for me, I'm not even someone who consistently votes Tory so am hardly wedded to the Tory view of the world - to the extent that could even be said to exist given the range of views held in one party.

[Otta]

As indiepanda said, there's practically no daylight between the two any more.

Yep, very true.

[Undisputedtruth]

Just a few quick points:

1) The oil led 1990s recession had already started by the time ERM took its toll on the UK in 1992.

2) There was no winter of discontent in the last Labour administration.

3) I remember Thatcher campaigning for cleaner streets but it didn't happen in her days.

4) The Conservatives are all about wrecking people's lives. Look how many people lost their businesses and their homes during their two recessions.

5) I don't recall ever voting for Tony Blair or Gordon Brown for that matter. Shocking hey!

6) I'm no fan of PFIs but PwC have been heavily involved (milking?) with them and here is what they have to say.

7) Loz is absolutely right about the 125% mortgage.

8) Here's an Independent article on the 100 year mortgage dated in 1996.

9) Most people aren't interested in government targets. They are far more interested in going to a new school or hospital.

10) How many schools and hospitals were built during nearly two decades of Tory administration?

[El Pibe]

That's just a sales pitch.

They are definitely part of the problem, not the solution.

We are however stuck with it thanks to the nature of the contracts it'd cost more to end them than to do anything about it.

Brown has lumbered us with a generation of chucking good money at bad.

Don't even try to defend it!!!

[Undisputedtruth]

It gets worse as some of these PwC staff are on secondment to the Treasury and making key decisions on PFI matters.

The only defence that I can think is that the number of new schools and hospital would be drastically reduced if PFI wasn't available.

[Damian H]

UDT - you have to be joking!!!!!!

Gordon Brown a great Chancellor???????

He was a TERRIBLE Chancellor - his economic miracles were all smoke and mirrors and many smart cookies saw what was happening at the time and sounded alarm bells. You can't even see that AFTER the event! The only comparison that could make him look like a great Chancellor is to contrast his tenure at Number 11 with his period as Prime Minister. He was a TERRIBLE Chancellor but an absolutely DREADFUL Prime Minister.

Edited in light of the Chair's warning not to abuse others - even those who deserve it.

[Damian H]

Otta Wrote:

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> My only regret is that Blair had gone and was able

> to enjoy a big dose of schadenfreude as he watch

> Brown appreciate the full horror of how poisoned

> the chalice he'd been yearning for for so long,

> really was!!!!

>

> What El Pibe said, x 100!!!

>

> I do have some symp[athy with Brown, I think he

> took A LOT of nasty shit from a lot of corners,

> some of which was just disgusting. And I think

> Blair played a blinder, getting out and leeting

> Brown take most of the blame for the mess that

> he'd been every bit as responsible for.

>

> I voted for Brown, I never voted for Blair.

>

> I'd be very interested to see where we'd be today

> had Cameron & Osborne been in charge for the

> noughties though! Of course, we'll never know, but

> I think we'd be in at least as bad a mess.

I reckon that is EXACTLY why Blair prevaricated as long as he did before stepping aside for Brown. He knew the chickens were coming home to roost and he wanted Brown to be in Number 10 to get it in the neck when they did.

[uncleglen]

Taking the cynical,conspiracy theory angle- a)all Scots politicians in England are desperate to wreak revenge on England for past injustices.

b)By publicising right-wingers as less intelligent automatically controls right-wingers who wish to appear intelligent and therefore will keep quiet.

[Huguenot]

The study was Canadian uncleglen, and probably were only dimly interested in Scotland regarding the research, and probably poorly motivated to get into a pissing contest about the interaction between Scottish parliamentarians and right wingers inngeneral.

[uncleglen]

According to Wiki Huguenot, over 15% of Canadians are of Scottish descent and that is an underestimation. Those injustices do go back a long way.

[Huguenot]

You're insisting that this study is all about Scottish politicians and English right wingers?

You're claiming that this is because Canadians are fighting to right past injustices against Scotland because of a blood feud?

[uncleglen]

I was voicing my thoughts on 2 separate issues because the thread seems to have deviated from the original.