Oakhurst Grove-planning permission for windows

[toffeeapple]

I am hoping to replace my ground floor bay sash window at the front of the house. The replacement would be pvc with a wooden surround and in design, very similar to the originals. As Oakhurst Grove is a conservation area, I was wondering if anyone has any experience of the planning permissions required. I have a horrible feeling I would be required to use the very expensive option of all wood frame. Thanks to any one who can advise.

[Thomas Micklewright]

Are we a conservation area? Cool!

[Twirly]

I think it might depend on where you are on Oakhurst, I don't think it's the entire road. I know the issue came up at the planning meeting for the flats at the end of the road, but I can't remember exactly where it was as it was so long ago. Certainly my downstairs neighbour had their done in a similar fashion a year or two ago, and I'm not aware that they applied for planning permission.

[fazer71]

Can't the existing box be refurbished?

Better easier and cheaper to keep the box and install new double glazed sliders with heavier weights all in wood.

If you're on the Ground floor the job would be easy and maintenance painting etc also easy.

That UPVC stuff is rubbish looks nasty too.

[peterstorm1985]

UPVC windows are a quick way to tell a potential purchaser that you've cut corners with building maintenance (they always look cheap). fazer71 is making a lot of sense

[amyw]

there are some upvc windows that imitate the style of wood which look nice. if you want pvc, its your house, do it!

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Toffee apple,

it depends on whether there is an article 4 directive attached to the conservation area. This means that usual permitted rights are withdrawn and you need to get permission to alter your windows.

The best is to talk to a planning officer about it. Not only will they advise whether you can do the changes without permission, but also if you want to change your windows and permission is required, what would be likely to be permitted.

Tel: 020 7525 5403

Fax: 020 7084 0347

[email protected]

or contact me with your details

Renata

[Marmora Man]

Plenty of wooden sash repairs about - will install draft excluder materials as feel. Never quite as effective as draught proof PVC but oh so much better to look at and live with. Probably no more expensive and possible even less expensive.

[fazer71]

Try

http://www.thesashwindowman.com

http://www.sashsmart.co.uk/

http://www.refurbasash.co.uk/

[toffeeapple]

Thank you to every one who has posted and pm'd.

According to the planning department, Oakhurst is a conservation area, the regulations changed in 2008. After a lengthy conversation with them, I feel none the wiser. The gentleman basically said that it depended on whether other houses on the road had uPVC but then it might not. He advised that I apply for planning permission but that it was a time consuming process and would cost ?150. I would really rather not do so unless I need to.

In response to the aesthetics of uPVC, I agree that they don't always look great but was going for an expensive option that does imitate well. I was hoping to keep the original surround which is sound and install double glazed sliders as Frazer71 suggested. All 3 double glazing companies told me this was not possible though. If any one knows this to not be strictly true, please let me know, it may be that it is simply something that they don't do.

The windows have been maintained and have draft excluder materials. I am hoping to install double glazing purely to reduce noise (though a little extra warmth wouldn't go amiss) as it is my bedroom and being at the front of the building, I am lacking in sleep!

Thanks again.

[fazer71]

If you ask Southwark planning anything they always say pay us a nice fee, they are a bunch of idiots can't give a straight answer to any question without submitting a planning application!

The Southwark Planning department is full of incompetent cretins!!!!!!

I just looked up my receipt I used http://www.premierwindows.ltd.uk/ they did the best upvc and wood sash windows for the price at the time.

For wood I paid ?800 inclusive of fitting per window, in a bay I guess you?ll have a minimum of 4 so it works out quite expensive.

I did have one upvc at the rear wish I?d paid the extra for the wood.

[WelshRich]

Toffeapple - until last year I was a senior planning officer for a local authority in south west London dealing with these type of queries every day:

As your property is a flat it does not benefit from Permitted Development Rights so if you propose external works that are a material alteration to the appearance planning permission would be required, and yes this does extend to replacing your front door. It is a matter of 'fact and degree' how different a change you propose as to whether the Council would require you to submit a planning application.

The fact you are in a Conservation Area is a further consideration which can influence how important Southwark may view your proposed changes, they do not change the need for p.p. for external works to a flat.

From experience changing from wooden to upvc is not only sufficient to warrant planning permission but something that may be of concern in a Conservation Area - in saying that you should check individual histories online for property's who you know have changed windows. Southwark may have approved them in exactly the same scenario. Often is the case that people have changed them through innocent ignorance without p.p. and no one's complained to the Council about it.(hence why you may encounter hesitancy from the planning officer at Southwark). At the end of the day the risk is yours to take.

For what it's worth I have just bought a flat with metal framed windows and propose to install traditional wooden sash. I won?t be applying, trusting my judgment the Council would accept them anyway and decide it would not be expedient to pursue if they ever found out.

Good luck!

[fazer71]

Toffeapple

It sounds like a better solution would be for you to have secondary glazing installed a lot cheaper and with the bigger air gap it would cut down on the sound far better than any of the other options.

Otherwise wood replacement

Now that the whole of East Dulwich knows you'll probably get a visit from the Gestapo planning department if you install upvc...

Even if you had a house in a conservation area the permitted development rights would not cover the windows.

WelshRich

Is only making the issue more confusing ?. Typical

toffeeapple Wrote:

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> After a lengthy conversation with them, I

> feel none the wiser.

You see typical?

[trizza]

Have a look at the rehau heritage sash - UVPC sliding sash. We had a look at this in detail and they have been approved by various councils for use in conservation areas. There are various companies in SE22 who do them.

Ultimately, if you have the original sash windows, you are probably better off getting these overhauled - you can have double glazed panes installed. If the windows have had it (or like us, they were 70's replacements or similar), then UVPC is likely to be cheaper than new wooden sash windows (especially if you go with a hardwood).

[Applespider]

toffeeapple Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was hoping to keep the original surround which is

> sound and install double glazed sliders as

> Frazer71 suggested. All 3 double glazing companies

> told me this was not possible though. If any one

> knows this to not be strictly true, please let me

> know, it may be that it is simply something that

> they don't do.

That should be possible. I recently had the Sash Guy (number is on the EDF somewhere) refurbish all my windows. For one of them, I needed a new sash slider and I got quotes for both single/double glazed sashes that would fit in the original frame. One thing that can bump the cost up apparently if you do double-glazed sashes is that you then need to buy new counter-weights too since the new sashes are heavier than the original.

Sure Guy (the Sash Guy) would come round and give you a quote for nothing so you could find out for yourself.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Out of interest, why is Oakhurst Grove a conversation area? It's not particularly remarkable or pretty.

[fazer71]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Out of interest, why is Oakhurst Grove a

> conversation area? It's not particularly

> remarkable or pretty.

To keep the Southwark planning department busy ...

[Chick]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Out of interest, why is Oakhurst Grove a

> conversation area? It's not particularly

> remarkable or pretty.

Em, yes it is.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Toffeeapple.

The update I have from the planning department is if you repair or replace the windows with like, you won't need planning permission. If you decide to either change material or style of window you will need planning permission. You may be granted planning permission if many other houses in your vicinity replaced their windows (probably prior to the conservation area status being in place).

Renata

[toffeeapple]

I have decided to go with the recommendation of having the sash itself replaced with wooden double glazing and keep the original surround. This means I don't have to go through the rigmarole of the planning permission.

Thanks again to all for their kind advice on this.

[east-of-the-Rye]

interesting thread - I would like to replace the horrible, top-hung, aluminium (painted white) windows to my Victorian house in Nunhead, because the frames are bent, let the rain as well as wind in, and the people who installed them left the original wooden part next to the bricks, which is now rotten. (I had a window repair company round, who said they were unrepairable.) Of course new wooden frames would be best, but are so expensive - I've had a quote. Good quality uPVC sliding sashes would look a lot better than what I've got (not to mention save energy but as I'm in a Conservation Area (Nunhead) it sounds as if replacing them with new metal window frames might be an option!

[Dmlt]

Hello toffeapple,

I think you will be dissapointed with the results of replacing the sashes alone. In my experience they can only install a 12 mm unit which is very ineffective for noise or heat insulation. Applying draft proofing to them does not last as the windows are not designed for it and makes painting them very difficult. It is very difficult to maintain the full movement too as the weights need to be larger and the boxes are very small so they have to made longer restricting the movement. If you do go down this route ensure the frames are stripped back to base coat and thougherly primed and repainted with a proper paint system - otherwise there really is no point in doing it.

A 3 sided boxsash bay replaced in timber would be around ?4500 give or take for sizes but should last a life time or ?2800 in pvc. I have installed them in a grade 2 listed building and many onsevation areas so they can't be that bad.

It will never make sense to me to replace a small part of something that is 100 years old that needs constant maintenance to keep tiptop (original boxsash should be painted every two years if you want keep them and overhauled every 10 - that why they lasted 100years people just paint and forget)

Pm me for any furher info

David

[fazer71]

Ummmmmmmmm

I've had sash windows refurbished and they are fine.

toffeeapple

The originals lasted 100 years and my guess is the refurbished ones will out last most of us if they are painted every five years if south facing and 7 if north facing and even that might be over the top if you use sikkens or better quality paint on the outside.

overhaul only when they need it.

I'wouldn't be spending ?4.5k or ?2.8k just stick to what you're doing unless you plan on living they for 50 years +

toffeeapple Out of interest what is the cost to overhaul and replace the sliding sash's ?

[lpool]

We had all our sash windows converted to double glazed and proper draft proofing. Much cheaper than replacing and makes big difference re heat and noise. We used Sash Window Company.

[toffeeapple]

Thanks fazer71, I have pm'd you regarding your query.

It is so difficult to know what will best reduce the noise. I have been told by the window refurbish guy that replacing the sash's with double glazing would have the same effect on the noise having the whole lot replaced. Whereas the companies that replace the whole window and don't offer just the sash replacement say this is not the case.

Thanks for all your advice and good to hear the experiences of those who have had their sashes converted.