Who started the regeneration of East Dulwich as a shopping centre?

[cathg]

I'd always be sceptical about ambitious transport notions. I moved into Camberwell in 1984 and shortly afterwards there was talk of plans to extend the bakerloo line from the elephant. I even saw maps which showed where they would position the new camberwell station on the corner of the green, just by where the father redcap is today In compliance with medieval grazing rights they had to agree to extend the green southwards onto church street to be allowed to build on the north corner of it. Twenty-four years on i'm still waiting for this to happen...

[dc]

And the Victoria line extension to Herne Hill of course.

I was (un)reliably informed that the Bakerloo line tracks already stretched virtually all the way to Camberwell and that the station was going to be at 'Dicky Dirts' on the corner of Denmark Hill and Coldharbour Lane. There was also the possibility that the line might be extended further south - beneath Denmark Hill/Champion Hill.

The people of Herne Hill and East Dulwich were locked in mortal combat over which destination was most deserving - a bit greedy of the Herne Hillites really, given that they already had the Victoria line extension sewn up.....

[Frisco]

"I moved into Camberwell in 1984 and shortly afterwards there was talk of plans to extend the bakerloo line from the elephant."

I lived there then, in Flodden Road, and I remember this well. I could never understand why they didn't just consider bringing the Bakerloo line above ground at E&C and link it to the overground line to take it to Camberwell and beyond. This is what they're doing with the East London Line to link it to Peckham Rye, after all. The old Camberwell Station could have been reinstated in (surprise) Station Road, and the link could then have continued in a choice of directions.

'Dicky Dirts'

I was trying to recall the name of that place in another thread last week, the one where the weird man who ran the jeans shop on Whateley Road was mentioned.

[macroban]

> I could never understand why they didn't just consider bringing the Bakerloo line above ground at E&C and link it to the overground line to take it to Camberwell and beyond.

The gradient would be an interesting engineering problem.

[Zebedee Tring]

If you look at the Undergound map for the 30s and early post-war period, you will see a dotted line projected Bakerloo extension to Camberwell. As a kid I had a washing up cloth with this proposed extension shown on it. But it never happened - gawd knows why, as they managed to drive the Victoria Line into deepest Sarf London.

[cathg]

I'm sober enough this morning to answer my own question last night before someone else does - I think the bakerloo extension to camberwell had to be scrapped because of the south london problem with that soft clay that tends to contribute to subsidence. As a couple of posters have suggested they did start tunnelling towards SE5 at some point, presumably directly underneath Walworth Road, but had to give up.

[Jeremy]

Frisco Wrote:

> And I'm happy to be educated, but in the right

> context and by genuine educators, who wouldn't to

> do so in such an obviously anal, irrelevant,

> nerdish and point-scoring way.

>

Relax Frisco, what's the problem with pointing out the odd bit of historical trivia?

[EDOldie]

Thanks, Frisco I didn't know all that. Was it the underground rivers that were the final nail for the underground in this part of south london? Nico Ladenis lived in Camberwell Grove at the time and I think he would have been more than happy to be in the west end. But his was the real start of 'New English' cooking for me, and it was not a popular style at the time. Fresh ingredients, meat cooked rare etc I think he opened there as it was the nearest place to DV he could get his hand on, I can't remember if it was a burger place before or after he was in there, before it became the Chinese.

Tram lines indeed, far too modern, surely Edward Alleyn started the regeneration of East Dulwich.

[Zebedee Tring]

It's interesting that on the internet some people seem to feel that it's OK to describe people as 'anal' and 'nerdish', whereas they would never do it face to face for fear of receiving a Glasgow kiss from the person being insulted.

I note that it was apparently considered that the technical problems in extending the Bakerloo Line to Camberwell were too great to overcome, when not only did they extend the Central Line under the extremely problematic Hackney Marshes 60 years ago but it was perfectly possible to build the much more ambitious Channel Tunnel. Where there's the will ...

[david_carnell]

I think this is the map referred to:

http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/images/00005Y-11.gif

[david_carnell]

And this is the proposed extensions for the East London Line:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/EastLondonLineRouteMap.png

Edited for spelling.

[Frisco]

"The gradient would be an interesting engineering problem."

But not impossible to solve, if it's considered as wider than a vertical issue. Not very 'can do', are you?

[Zebedee Tring]

Very interesting map. It also shows the abandoned Northern Line extensions from Mill Hill East to Edgware, from Edgware to Bushey Heath, from Finsbury Park to Highgate and from Highgate to Ally Pally.

The yummy mummies of Muswell Hill would love to have been on the Underground, as would their ED counterparts.

[Frisco]

"Relax Frisco, what's the problem with pointing out the odd bit of historical trivia?"

Thanks for your concern Jeremy but I'm quite relaxed actually. The problem with trivia is when it results in pointed comments like: "Perhaps because it's not true?", when it clearly is, in the context of what's being discussed.

The discussion was about recent ED regeneration, and what I wrote regarding Sunday train services at ED station was true in 1987, and for quite a long time both before and after. The reinstatement of Sunday and late evening train services to and from ED station undoubtedly assisted in making ED a viable and attractive place for people who rely public transport, and by implication it would have had a direct effect on regeneration of the local area and its shopping facilities. However, suggesting that I was not telling the truth was provocative, and could easily have been phrased differently so that it was not so, while still pointing out the trivia (which I, perhaps like other saddos interested in ED and other local social history, would have been interested in myself - but in the proper context).

[Frisco]

"surely Edward Alleyn started the regeneration of East Dulwich."

Good point EDoldie.

"It's interesting that on the internet some people seem to feel that it's OK to describe people as 'anal' and 'nerdish', whereas they would never do it face to face for fear of receiving a Glasgow kiss from the person being insulted."

Don't you believe it Zebedee, I never say things on the internet that I wouldn't say to people face-to-face (when they are sober). Also, but my words and opinion that what was being said in response to points I was making was anal and nerdish are, as opposed to your apparent preference of resorting to a 'Glasgow kiss' in response, neither violent nor criminal. But perhaps that's the 'Wanstead' aspect still showing, eh?

[Mr Bojangles]

Looking at the tube map it always amazes what a rubbish deal south london gets in terms of tube links. Why is that?

Also, I know I've posted on this before but Southwark is looking for support with the current ELL to peckham rye and denmark hill (presumably because we are going to lose this aswell) so check out the website http://www.southwark.gov.uk/YourServices/transport/ELLX.html and register your support

[Frisco]

"And this is the proposed extensions for the East London Line:"

Yes, we know it is now, but we've been (I thought) tracing the development of the plan (apparently back beyond 1902) when it was proposed not only to come to ED but to terminate here. The veracity of this was proved by dc in his posting which contained an abstract from Hansard dating from 1990.

I hope all this excitement doesn't affect the heart scan I'm having to have tomorrow* at Kings!

*this is true

[Zebedee Tring]

Frisco, you have a real knack for being gratuitously insulting. I personally do not prefer to resort to a 'Glasgow kiss' and you are being extremely disingenuous in saying that I did when I suggested no such thing. I prefer to debate points logically and agree to differ with those who disagree with me instead of resorting to the language of the playground that I left more years ago than I would care to remember.

Back to the topic, was it not suggested, at the time that the Victoria Line was extended to Brixton, that it might be further extended to East Croydon?

[Frisco]

"Looking at the tube map it always amazes what a rubbish deal south london gets in terms of tube links. Why is that?"

From what I recall reading, it was considered at the time that south London was already adequately served by overground commuter trains, and that the investment south of the river wasn't really required. The later problem with that, of course (as illustrated by macroban's train timetable from 1957), was that British Rail services didn't work in any kind of harmony or integration with other local transport services, such as the tube, and it was mostly immune from local pressure to maintain and improve local services, particularly off-peak services.

It's only now, under Ken, that the issue of a fully integrated transport system is being seriously put in place, and I suspect that almost 20 years was lost, as he would have followed similar policies had he been able to as Leader of the GLC.

[macroban]

> Looking at the tube map it always amazes what a rubbish deal south london gets in terms of tube links. Why is that?

In the main:

(1) The stasis caused by the Royal Commission on London Traffic that sat from 1903 to 1905.

(2) The pre-First World War "credit crunch" which made it impossible to borrow capital for new lines.

(3) The First World War suspension of infrastructure investment.

(4) The electrification of Southern Railway suburban lines.

[Frisco]

"Frisco, you have a real knack for being gratuitously insulting."

Only when I feel it's required Zebedee, and it's not really that different to gratuitous and misplaced superiority.

[Keef]

For God's sake, let it lie!

[Frisco]

"Frisco, you have a real knack for being gratuitously insulting."

Only when I feel it's required Zebedee, and it's not really that different to gratuitous and misplaced superiority.

Also, I never left the subject. However, just to remind you that the subject is actually the regeneration of ED, and, by extension, the effect on that of rail services to and from ED, and not the extension of the Victoria Line beyond Brixton to East Croydon. ;-)

[Zebedee Tring]

As I understand it, the extension of the Victoria Line from Brixton to Croydon would have gone through East Dulwich. If this had come to fruition, the regeneration of ED would have happened considerably earlier. My comment was therefore very much on topic.

[*Bob*]

Frisco Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Only when I feel it's required Zebedee, and it's

> not really that different to gratuitous and

> misplaced superiority.

>

> Also, I never left the subject. However, just to

> remind you that the subject is actually the

> regeneration of ED, and, by extension, the effect

> on that of rail services to and from ED, and not

> the extension of the Victoria Line beyond Brixton

> to East Croydon. ;-)

C'mon Frisco - it's Christmas. Tell us a joke or something.