Thought for the day/life:

[Gardenman]

The primary cause of unhappiness is never the situation, but your thoughts about it.

[rendelharris]

How exceptionally platitudinous. I'll tell that to the young mother of two I met in King's recently who's been given three months to live - oh it's your thoughts that are making you unhappy, not the situation. Sure it'll go down a treat. For heaven's sake. This sort of new age drivel really riles me, it's a soft form of victim blaming and effectively no different to telling someone "pull yourself together".

[Sue]

Sorry Rendel, but despite your example (which is clearly tragic) I agree with Gardenman and I don't think the actual principle is either New Age drivel or victim blaming.

He (I assume it is a he from the name) is not suggesting that somebody has caused their illness - or any other difficult life situation - by their thoughts.

ETA: One may not be able to change a situation. But if it wasn't possible to change one's approach to it/thoughts about it, there would be no need for counsellors or therapists.

ETA: By my second paragraph, I was not implying that anybody had thought that Gardenman was suggesting that. However, that is a concept which "New Age" or whatever people do sometimes suggest, which is why I mentioned it.

[rendelharris]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry Rendel, but despite your example (which is

> clearly tragic) I agree with Gardenman and I don't

> think the actual principle is either New Age

> drivel or victim blaming.

>

> He (I assume it is a he from the name) is not

> suggesting that somebody has caused their illness

> - or any other difficult life situation - by their

> thoughts.

Good job I didn't say they were suggesting that then. What they are suggesting is that if you're unhappy about a situation, your unhappiness is down to your thoughts, not the situation - "the primary cause of unhappiness is never the situation" - and in myriad cases, including the example I've given, that is nonsense.

[Sue]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sue Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Sorry Rendel, but despite your example (which

> is

> > clearly tragic) I agree with Gardenman and I

> don't

> > think the actual principle is either New Age

> > drivel or victim blaming.

> >

> > He (I assume it is a he from the name) is not

> > suggesting that somebody has caused their

> illness

> > - or any other difficult life situation - by

> their

> > thoughts.

>

> Good job I didn't say they were suggesting that

> then. What they are suggesting is that if you're

> unhappy about a situation, your unhappiness is

> down to your thoughts, not the situation - "the

> primary cause of unhappiness is never the

> situation" - and in myriad cases, including the

> example I've given, that is nonsense.

I edited my post above while you were writing that.

[rendelharris]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ETA: One may not be able to change a situation.

> But if it wasn't possible to change one's approach

> to it/thoughts about it, there would be no need

> for counsellors or therapists.

Yes of course, but that's a highly complex and skilled business, and it isn't reducible to glib platitudes. I just imagine people suffering from loss or depression looking at that trite quote - would it really be of any use to them, or would it just make them feel worse?

[Sue]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sue Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > ETA: One may not be able to change a situation.

> > But if it wasn't possible to change one's

> approach

> > to it/thoughts about it, there would be no need

> > for counsellors or therapists.

>

> Yes of course, but that's a highly complex and

> skilled business, and it isn't reducible to glib

> platitudes. I just imagine people suffering from

> loss or depression looking at that trite quote -

> would it really be of any use to them, or would it

> just make them feel worse?

I don't think Gardenman, in posting on this forum, was intending to do anything except put forward a perfectly valid and helpful concept to the readers of this forum.

I have personally found it extremely helpful in the past.

For example, decades ago I once found myself alone in Amsterdam in the early hours of the morning with nowhere to stay, not much money, no map of the city, places closed, very few people about, no benches in the station or anywhere else that I could see to sleep or sit on, on the edge of what appeared to be the red light district, and no idea where to go. Long story.

I was very frightened and started panicking.

Things changed when I realised (without the benefit of a quote from Gardenman) that instead of thinking what a bad and frightening situation I was in, I could view the whole thing as an adventure.

Of course, everything worked out. I stopped panicking, asked around, and found a hostel which was open and had spaces.

That is a very minor example obviously, but I think it demonstrates the usefulness of what Gardenman said.

I expect he is regretting having posted now :)

I don't expect anybody else will want to post a thought for the day/life on this thread for fear of being immediately attacked. Plus ca change.

ETA: BTW it is unlike you to be so extremely rude to posters on this forum!

[Robert Poste's Child]

It's true to some extent. The Stoics believed it and we all discover the truth of it at times. The new agers just put a magical thinking spin on it.

Agree that for anyone with depression, it's about as helpful as saying 'cheer up' or 'pull yourself together', though to be fair perhaps you need to have experience grief or depression to understand how it sounds.

[rendelharris]

ETA this in response to Sue

Gosh I'm sorry, I thought it was the Lounge, the place anything could be discussed. If people don't want trite nonsense criticised, don't post it. If it discourages others from posting trite nonsense, good.

And come on Sue, I like you but you're hardly backwards in criticising what others say when you don't agree with it, are you?

Your example shows that yes, sometimes the primary cause of unhappiness can be your thoughts and not the situation. That doesn't alter the fact that to say " The primary cause of unhappiness is never the situation, but your thoughts about it" is rubbish.

[Sue]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's true to some extent. The Stoics believed it

> and we all discover the truth of it at times. The

> new agers just put a magical thinking spin on it.

>

> Agree that for anyone with depression, it's about

> as helpful as saying 'cheer up' or 'pull yourself

> together', though to be fair perhaps you need to

> have experience grief or depression to understand

> how it sounds.

It may not be helpful to somebody experiencing grief or depression.

But that doesn't make it untrue. And it doesn't make it unhelpful in other circumstances.

I say that as somebody who has experienced both grief and severe depression.

[rendelharris]

> It may not be helpful to somebody experiencing

> grief or depression.

>

> But that doesn't make it untrue. And it doesn't

> make it unhelpful in other circumstances.

>

> I say that as somebody who has experienced both

> grief and severe depression.

Sue, that's exactly my point which I've tried to make several times above, obviously inadequately: yes it can be helpful in some circumstances; it's the smug certainty of the "never" that makes me angry.

[Sue]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ETA this in response to Sue

>

> Gosh I'm sorry, I thought it was the Lounge, the

> place anything could be discussed. If people

> don't want trite nonsense criticised, don't post

> it. If it discourages others from posting trite

> nonsense, good.

>

> And come on Sue, I like you but you're hardly

> backwards in criticising what others say when you

> don't agree with it, are you?

>

> Your example shows that yes, sometimes the primary

> cause of unhappiness can be your thoughts and not

> the situation. That doesn't alter the fact that to

> say " The primary cause of unhappiness is never

> the situation, but your thoughts about it" is

> rubbish.

Well, disagreeing with somebody can be done without being rude, lounge or not. And your first post on this thread seemed very rude to me.

And I disagree with your assessment that to say "the primary cause of unhappiness is never the situation, but your thoughts about it" is rubbish.

I would say that the primary cause of unhappiness is always your thoughts. Regardless of the situation.

However I don't have more time to spend on this now or indeed today. Hopefully Gardenman may return to the thread to answer your comments.

I'm off now.

[rendelharris]

So you believe that the primary cause of unhappiness is always a person's thoughts about a situation and never the situation itself. Fine.

[Sue]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So you believe that the primary cause of

> unhappiness is always a person's thoughts about a

> situation and never the situation itself. Fine.

Yes.

And now I really am off. Shan't be looking at this again till tomorrow.

[rendelharris]

That's OK, if that's what you believe I think we're done on this one.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It's true to some extent. The Stoics believed

> it

> > and we all discover the truth of it at times.

> The

> > new agers just put a magical thinking spin on

> it.

> >

> > Agree that for anyone with depression, it's

> about

> > as helpful as saying 'cheer up' or 'pull

> yourself

> > together', though to be fair perhaps you need

> to

> > have experience grief or depression to

> understand

> > how it sounds.

>

>

> It may not be helpful to somebody experiencing

> grief or depression.

>

> But that doesn't make it untrue. And it doesn't

> make it unhelpful in other circumstances.

>

> I say that as somebody who has experienced both

> grief and severe depression.

So we agree...

[Asset]

That went well then

[KidKruger]

?I don't expect anybody else will want to post a thought for the day/life on this thread for fear of being immediately attacked.?

Nice try Gardenman. Would have been an OK subject for a thread, but the compiler rejected your syntax.

Perhaps try again on a new thread, in a while ?

And maybe insert a brief preface to confirm that any thoughts / proverbs are intended earnestly (just in case dying people draw the conclusion that thoughts for the day are actually telling them their problems are just imagined).

I?d ask admin to delete this thread for the shitfest it instantly became.

[Sue]

My thought for the day/life:

Play nicely :)

ETA: Or possibly, as that seems to be a marketing agency in Bristol, Play nice :))