CPZ: Proposed Controlled Parking in East Dulwich

[Jacqui5254]

If Southwark cared about reducing pollution they could start with reducing the size of the speed bumps throughout the area which they haven't chosen to do.

Constantly slowing down and speeding up almost doubles the amount of harmful gasses vehicles pump out.

The CPZ is nothing to do with 'cleaner air'.

[Rockets]

roywj - most of the traders I have spoken to on the Lane are worried about their livelihoods not their ability to pay and display to get to work. And many local residents are resisting as they see this for what it is - a tax and something the council has been plotting to action for years.

To suggest the CPZ will not affect trade is an assumption at best. And the council's own research showed that the pull of Lordship lane was greater than both the SE22 and SE15 postcodes and 22% of people had driven - and these were people interviewed shopping on the Lane. In another report the council said that Lordship Lane was increasingly becoming a hub behind only London Bridge and Walworth Road for it's catchment area - and since then the catchment area is likely to have increased with places like the Picturehouse and M&S opening.

What if the council introduces day long zone operation thus forcing drivers to use the council's pay and display machine - which on the plans are few and far between? What if just 10% of those people give up coming to the Lane?

A 5 - 10% decrease in footfall on Lordship Lane could be catastrophic to local businesses.

[Penguin68]

If there was to be a short period in which a CPZ came into play (which would be relevant only if 'through' commuters are blamed for congestion - rather than 'in' commuters serving in the area) - then a suitable period would not be mid-day - when punters might be expected to be coming to the many cafes and restaurants in LL - but, say 9:00-11:00 - or 3:00 - 4:00. That at least would cause least damage to trade.

But that isn't what the game is - it is 'squeeze the punter' time. So we may expect the worst possible times to be inflicted on the largest areas - and if LL ceases to be a hub drawing in trade - well why should Tooley St mind - they don't live, work or shop here, so we can go hang, so long as the money keeps rolling in. Which it will from anyone unfortunate enough to keep a car in an area with relatively (for the rest of Southwark) deplorable public transport options, most regularly suspended (save buses) at the weekends when residents might want to travel locally rather than banging into work.

[AylwardS]

Nxjen

Not quite. It?s unlikely cars would be parked for the whole day, just short periods while supporting the businesses on Lordship Lane. If permit holders from other areas of East Dulwich can?t park and won?t walk / use public transport the local businesses lose trade. The numbers of East Dulwich residents who want to park all day to commute is likely to be smaller and the parking situation should improve for those currently struggling to park without taking business away from local businesses. My thinking anyway

[Sally Eva]

I'm sure that drivers are too sensible and courteous to be "constantly speeding up and slowing down" over speed humps. This maximises their fuel consumption and (as you say)very likely maximises the pollution which they cause. Most car drivers are aware of the need to keep a consistent, legal speed in order to minimise the cost of their journey and the danger they post to others.

[Earl Aelfheah]

You can?t go over most speed bumps at more than 10 miles an hour without knackering your car. If you kept a constant speed of 10 mph you?d probably get lynched.

[nxjen]

AylwardS Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nxjen

>

> Not quite. It?s unlikely cars would be parked for

> the whole day, just short periods while supporting

> the businesses on Lordship Lane. If permit holders

> from other areas of East Dulwich can?t park and

> won?t walk / use public transport the local

> businesses lose trade. The numbers of East

> Dulwich residents who want to park all day to

> commute is likely to be smaller and the parking

> situation should improve for those currently

> struggling to park without taking business away

> from local businesses. My thinking anyway

So what you?re saying is that residents of the Dog Kennel Hill zone should be allowed to park in the East Dulwich zone but that residents of East Dulwich zone should not be allowed to park in the Dog Kennel Hill zone.

[derwentgrove]

We are also supporting the proposed CPZ. This isn't because of a desire to park outside our home (we don't own a car). However the problem of commuter parking is particularly pronounced on Derwent Grove because of proximity to the station. This means that it is very difficult for visitors and in particular tradesmen to park - a major problem when they have materials and equipment with them to unload. Because there is no existing parking regime it is also not possible to suspend bays when people move in/out. Although the convention is that people use wheelie bins in an attempt to secure a space this is increasingly breaking down and so people just have to block the road for major deliveries - cue a shouting match several times a day from angry motorists using the road as a rat run. Until 6 years ago I lived a similar distance away from Limehouse DLR station and the Tower Hamlets CPZ worked very well.

[chazzle]

derwentgrove - One concern I have is that much of the parking at the station end of Melbourne Grove is paid parking bays. This is also by the edge of the zone, so residents can't park on the other side of the tracks in e.g. St Francis. This will push a lot of residential parking onto Derwent Grove.

[goldilocks]

Chazzle - I don't have the maps with me at the moment, but Melbourne Grove already has maximum stay bays at the moment at the end near the station, so the pay and display I think is similar - with the added option of paying after the first hour, which may actually be helpful to businesses such as Therapy / GM hairdressers etc where a 30 min maximum bay isn't so much use for customers.

[intexasatthe moment]

Drop in session tomorrow Sat 26th

Push Studios 17 Blackwater St SE22 8RS Tomorrow ,Sat 26th 2pm to 5pm

"come along and talk to officers"

[The Nappy Lady]

Hi all,

I've tried to read all through this long thread, and honestly I do appreciate the parking issues around East Dulwich Station.

This is how I use Lordship Lane - as an example of a user who will be affected by CPZ quite badly.

I live in Nunhead and work in East Dulwich, and have done for over 10 years. When I can I cycle to work, and sometimes walk, BUT the reality of my life as a busy working Mum is that I am always chasing my tail, and cramming in a LOT.

So, 3 times a week I go to ESPH Gym for about 2 hours, plus some post gym shopping time.

In the week, I have to drop 1 child to primary school, and help my other, older child get to secondary school some way away - we used to rely on buses for her but the school is REALLY harsh on them if they are late - instant 30 minute detention, and the two buses it took to get her to school were to unreliable, and I'm not happy for her to cycle because of the route she'd have to take.

So, I go to the gym, then at least twice a week I pop down Lordship Lane and pick up groceries, go to the Chemist, Falmers etc. and then on to work where I work 35-40 hours a week....

I finish work and dash home to feed kids, oversee homework etc.

IF the CPZ comes in, and IF it is paid parking for 2 hours at ?2.75 per hour, for me that will mean ?27.50 a week, or about ?100 a month that I will be paying to be at work. If the CPZ is longer then that will increase.

The reality of that is I may not be able to use the gym any more, and then I wont be using the local shops either. Work - well yes, I guess I can still do that and I will just have to drop the kids, then go home, then cycle or bus back if I don't want to pay for the parking - but that will reduce my working hours and my income (but if I pay to park that reduces my income too effectively).

I drive an electric car, and I've lived in the area over 20 years. I am really proud to live and work locally, and I don't want any of it to change.

If Southwark were to introduce free controlled parking restrictions I'd have no issue - by all means offer machine produced timed tickets that provide up to 2 hours free parking. That would get rid of the commuters, and mean people don't take up spaces all day. It wouldn't solve my parking for work problem, but surely this really only needs to be put in place down around the station anyway? The area they have included seems huge - I never have a problem parking (all week) anywhere from ESPH gym, through to Barry Road. The only difficult day is Saturday when the market is on.

Do residents really want to be paying for permits? What about when you have building work and on top of the other build costs you're facing maybe ?30 a day for the workers vans plus the skip permit costs? Over an 11 week build that would mount up. What about when people come to provide you with a quote and you have to pay for them to park for an hour when they are only in the house 10 minutes? Won't that be annoying?

I am not posting to say 'poor me' I am posting to try to show that it isn't as simple as saying 'people can pay to park for an hour and do their shopping'. There are others lke me who work locally, and lots of us have to use our cars because of life logistics. I know it's an irony to drive to the gym, but I have to get the kids to school first, and I have to get to work afterwards, so it is how I fit it all in, and it allows me to shop locally and support the local shops too.

I have seen Lordship Lane transfer from a run down, tatty high street into a thriving community, it is wonderful now, and I don't want us to loose what we have. I love this area, and I've always loved the fact that unlike other boroughs we don't have parking restrictions, I've seen it as a bonus, even if it means I can't always park right outside my house. For me the Pros outweigh the Cons.

If Southwark only want to improve our lives and reduce traffice and deter commuters they can find a way to do that WITHOUT it involving paid parking.

Anyway, I wasn't sure if I wanted to raise my head above the parapet and post, and it's only one persons view, but for me, if it does come in, I hope it's only around the station and not all the way up the lane.

[Earl Aelfheah]

How many of the 'commuters' parking near ED station are driving from within the proposed CPZ? Will they still be able to do this post introduction, or will permits be 'zoned'?

[The Nappy Lady]

The council said at the meeting on Tuesday that the whole area would be 1 zone so anyone who lives up by the Plough with a permit for instance could park down by the station. I suspect a few people do that.

[andrewc]

Molly I appreciate your honesty but I think Southwark's efforts to reduce your ( and mine) reliance on the car for short journeys should be supported.

It's a pain in the ass ( driving to my brother in Camberwell is out of the question now, so it's a 25 minute walk) but something's gotta give.

[Wil72]

Anyone that wants East Dulwich to retain its vibrant, buzzy atmosphere should get themselves down to the Proposed Parking 'drop in session' at Push Studios on Blackwater Street asap. Open until 5pm today. Otherwise, we could be looking at a very different high street in a couple of years.

Shops and restaurants are already struggling to stay afloat, and if people can't park to go to the cinema, the gym, the restaurants & the shops, Lordship Lane risks becoming another victim. House prices will bomb, parking attendants will be circling like vultures and a quick wander up the high street will turn into a stressful experience to be avoided.

Unsurprisingly, the 'drop in session' was totally chaotic, the representatives from the council are doing their best to talk to one person at a time so that no-one can really hear what anyone else is saying, thereby avoiding conflict. They are sticking post it notes onto huge maps showing residents concerns/errors with the maps etc, but surely they should be recording those properly?

No one is asking visitors to sign into the register which I suspect is a ploy to claim that less people turned up than actually did. And when we asked what kind of research they had done to prove that commuters were using the area to park in, we were told that they didn't have enough budget to do that and were assuming that was the case. The research in the paperwork that they are handing out was dated 2015, so is also irrelevant.

However, if we don't all go down there and tell them what we think, fill in the questionnaires that were sent out asap (as apparently the results of these will be used to make the final decision)and sign the petitions that are in pretty much every shop/business on Lordship Lane, we could be living in a very different environment in a couple of years time. And then it will be too late.

Apparently there are plans afoot for a secondary change of design for Lordship Lane in the pipeline too, so if we don't speak up about this, god knows what that will involve further down the line....

[dulwichresident01]

Well said Wil72. It?s really important that those not in favour fill in the questionnaire and state they do not want it.

It?s also worth bearing in mind that the council will be selling more permits than there are spaces...so the problem won?t be solved...we?ll just be paying for it!!

[AylwardS]

I?m still undecided if this is a good idea for the area.

I?ve just been to the dropping session on until 5pm at Push Studios, 17 Blackwater Road and use this as an opportunity to ask questions about ow the zone will affect you / the businesses you use on Lordship Lane and feedback on the questionnaires. For or against make your view known

Parking in the area has got worse in the 20 years we?ve lived in East Dulwich and walking down Lordship Lane to the dropin session reminded me why I?ve never driven down there in those 20 years, I?m lucky I don?t need to - others might have a different view.

A few thoughts I took away from my discussion with the staff and questions I asked that might be of interest to others.

The completed questionnaires they receive will be used to put together the report to committee with what should happen. If you live in East Dulwich but outside the zone fill in questions that apply on the questionnaire rather than send feedback in another way. Not clear what weight will be given to non-resident / business responses but hopefully the news of users of the businesses will have some weight.

One zone or multiple? This is one of the biggest zones they?ve consulted on and one reason for consulting is to get views on whether the zone is right. The final layout may be a number of smaller zones, though my impression was they are leaning heavily towards one zone. If you think what will work for your road won?t work for those at the other end I?d say put that on your consultation response. Comments on this thread highlight a commuter problem nearer to the station that is unlikely to be the problem in roads away from the station. Can?t see how one zone could solve both sets of problems.

Will residents be able to park near businesses. I never personally drive to Lordship Lane but as with other zones if there is one zone then your permit will entitle you to park in any permit bay in the zone. That means a permit holder from Barry Road could drive to Frogley Road and park in a permit holder only bay while visiting shops on that part of Lordship Lane at no additional charge. Those with permits in other zones (Dog Kennel Hill, West Peckham if introduced) would need to walk / take public transport or use the paid parking bays. Nxjen, having used, and still using, shops and businesses along Lordship Lane for over 20 years I don?t want them to close because their customers cannot park. It doesn?t affect me as I don?t drive to Lordship Lane but I?m sure there are some who do. If this was just a parking zone I might have more of a problem with this but its for healthier streets too and if people who drive decide to walk or use public transport that will make it more pleasant for everyone and if businesses don?t lose out we?ll all benefit.

The Grove Vale maps only seem to show bays on one side. There was an error on the map but parking will stay as it is now but with a proposed 2 hour limit.

I asked about customers at hairdressers etc who pay to park and stay beyond the time paid for? Say they have an appointment between 1 & 3, they pay for 1 - 2 when the zone operates but want to visit other shops after their appointment and then to use other shops. They will need to move to another bay. Probably only an issue for a very small number of customers.

The zone?s never going to be acceptable to everyone or solve all the issues but do make your voice heard by filling in the consultation or the Council won?t have any reason to change the design. One of the staff did say this was the first stage and after the consultation they will put together a report to go to committee so fill in the consultation now, tell them what will work for you and gather evidence to demonstrate what you are saying.

Walking off the estate behind Dulwich Hamlet?s ground today, when the restrictions don?t operate and on a match day was like walking around before the CPZ was introduced. The non resident parking will be gone once the match is over but its a reminder of how it was - we wouldn?t be able to drive onto or off the estate without driving on the wrong side of the road.

[singalto]

The drop n session was a shambles, possibly deliberately. I was told that current white lines where the dropped curbs are will become double yellow lines. The member of staff I spoke insisted that the CPZ would create 40% more parking spaces! Business people are very worried about the impact on the area too.

[The Nappy Lady]

At the local business meeting with the council the other day they told us they were collecting anonymous data from mobile phones to work out where people who park are coming from and if they are then commuting into town etc!!!

You see they all seem to be saying different things at different meetings.

There?s no reason they can?t implement a 2 hour free parking with times ticket from a machine to deter commuters and free residents permits. But they need to generate revenue.

Don?t be fooled.

[mrwb]

I would have thought the biggest hit to local businesses will be from everyone in the area who owns a car or two being ?120+ lighter, or whatever the cost is?

Yes it's mainly for the ??

In my part of ED no parking pressure whatsoever. Will be replying against.I guess if people want to volunterily pay what amounts to extra council tax. I'll be stumping up for a permit.

[rupert james]

As people consider the implications of the CPZ consultation are people aware that at the same time Champion Hill is becoming a no go area for thru traffic. It is becoming cut off at the T junction from Denmark Hill to Champion Hill and left from Dog Kennel Hill/Champion Hill to the T junction.

This will force traffic to use Grove Hill Road, Bromar Road, Pytchley Road. Dog Hennel Hill and Goose Green into Lordship Lane to reach Herne Hill or having to reverse back to Denmark Hill.

Rather like the extra traffic that had to divert when Camberwell Grove was closed.

With the focus on the CPZ, Southwark has slipped a Traffic Management Order to make it legal to do so.

How many people were aware of this? If you know the area think about it and ask yourself why this is necessary and where it fits into Southwark's master plan for car owners.

In my lifetime here of over 73 years the current setup has never been a problem.

Whether you want or do not want a CPZ there are many side effects that have to be considered. More traffic thru side roads. How will that effect a CPZ.

Just thought it should be brought to peoples attention.

[intexasatthe moment]

I don't understand why S'wark seem unable to organise more effective drop ins . I was so put off by the previous one I attended at Dulwich Library ( street calming ) that I didn't struggle (unwell today ) to get to this one .

There is no mention of the traffic pillows proposed for Barry Rd ( at the above )on the current plans for a CPZ .My understanding is that such pillows will mean no parking either side and it seems odd not to integrate this with the current plans .

Regardless of this, the proposed yellow lining of dropped curbs and their extension either side of the dropped curbs will significantly reduce parking spaces on Barry Rd .

Can someone tell me whether some of the stretches of blue residents parking are replacing current yellow lines ?

[exdulwicher]

I think it is important that we all think about what kind of environment we want to live in. I am certain that when people imagine their ideal neighbourhood, it is not be a dream of polluted air, cars jammed in endless traffic, or streets filled up with parked cars.

The thing about raising revenue as well, the comments about it being "just a cash cow" for the council. On the one hand, everyone obviously wants the normal council services - refuse collection / recycling, schools, libraries, road repairs - but the councils have systematically had their central Government funding cut and cut over the last 10 years. They have to recoup that money somehow or cut more services and like it or not, driving / parking are relatively simple ways of (a) raising much needed funds and (b) simlutaneously inducing a change of atitude and habit around driving.

when you go to LL, do you go to admire the long queue of traffic that's trying to negotiate its way past a badly parked car and the cars endlessly circling trying to find a parking space or do you go to do some shopping, eating, socialising?

If you make the surroundings more pleasant and less toxic (in terms of noise and pollution) people spend more time there, they relax more and they have more time to shop and browse. And they visit the area more often because it's a nicer place to spend time. That's just factual info from every city, every neighbourhood that's introduced restrictions on driving (via whatever means like more pedestrianised zones, parking restrictions etc). The general point of it is that it's done in conjunction with better public transport (like park & ride, more buses etc) and environmental factors like creating more public spaces, more planting and so on.

[Earl Aelfheah]

A CPZ is not going to reduce traffic on Lordship Lane.