What is permitted development in Southwark?

[smb12]

We are looking to do some conversion work on our mid terrace house and I am a little confused about what is permitted development in Southwark. I was wondering if there were any knowlegeable forumites who could provide advice on this.

Essentially we want to do a single storey side return extension to open up our kitchen and also a dormer loft conversion.

Our kitchen is approx 18-20 ft in length and so the extension would have to match this in length. I have read somewhere that Southwark have a 3m depth limit for new a extension under permitted development (i.e. no planning permission required but party/boundary wall agreement required) but cant actually find this information anywhere on the Southwark planning portal and that this policy is therefore stricter than national planning regulations. Is this still correct?

If this 3m depth limit exists, I assume this would also apply to a dormer loft conversion too? This is less of an issue than the kitchen but good to clarify.

Many thanks

[peterstorm1985]

The legislation allows local authorities to vary the rules to suit local requirements. There have been some long threads on the forum previously but if you're not familiar with the legislation in full (more than just a measurement in one direction) you're likely to end up more confused than less so. Probably best to sketch out on paper (words and pictures) what it is that you actually want to do then ring up the planning department and have a chat with someone. They are very amenable.

[char1ie]

You'll need to get planning permission as you will be extending your property up to the boundary.

As you will need an architect to do the plans you can submit these plans as part of the planning application.

Charlie

[Senor Chevalier]

I don't think it is clear cut. The permitted development rules are supposed to apply nationally but they do seem to vary in application. I have seen side extensions done under PD in other boroughs as long as not in a conservation area. However, in Southwark I have seen side return extensions rejected as PD and forced through a full planning application.

Whether something is PD or not is supposed to be a matter of fact and if it is you can just plod on and do the work. That said, if it is later found not to be PD (i.e. you were wrong) then you are in a mess having to potentially reverse the work. The solution to this is to obtain a certificate of lawful development, where the planning dept confirm in writing that it is PD and this removes any risk after the event.

A good starting point is probably to speak to the planners. Go to the "one stop shop" on the Walworth Rd and speak to the duty planner there - you just drop in without an appointment. I suggest to take a location map (Southwark Council website Maps section is good for this) along with some measurements / rough sketches. You can speak to the officer who should be able to advise whether it is PD or a full application needed. I suspect they will say full application.

The other thing you can do is look up your own road in the planning applications section of the Southwark website. What you are proposing sounds pretty standard and if others in your street have done the same there will be a record and you will be able to see whether they sought full planning or a Certificate of Lawful Development.

I did have the rules for PD somewhere and I will try to dig them out, but I would be nervous about applying them from first principles without also getting the certificate.

[Senor Chevalier]

Ok here is the legislation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/2362/pdfs/uksi_20082362_en.pdf

My lay man reading of this is that your side return should fall under Class A and provided that:

-it is single storey;

-no higher than 3m at the eaves (party wall boundary); and

-no wider than half of your existing rear outrigger

The loft conversion should fall under Class B provided that:

-the front side of roof visible from road is not altered;

-overall height not increased;

-the back of your dormer is > 20cm from the eaves of the main roof.

Read the link for the full detail though as there are various other constraints around materials and windows etc. As I said before I know there hae been some problems with Councils taking different views on this (e.g. deeming that side return extensions are rear extensions not side extensions and therefore not permitted [Edited: see the doc posted by MSA below which clarifies that side return extensions are deemed as both side and rear extensions and hence both sets of rules apply - i.e. no more than 3m back]) I also reiterate that you must get the certificate to make sure you are covered and avoid heartache later.

Also once you get going with your plans, you will find that you may want to go outside the rules and so end up needing planning, for example on the loft conversion I suspect you may want velux type windows to the front roof pitch and you may want to be more inventive with materials and these may not necessarily be allowed under PD.

Good luck.

[char1ie]

"1. development where the development is within 5m of a boundary of the curtilage of the premises"

Means because you are building within 5 metres of the boundary then you will need planning permission, so you do not meet the criteria for permitted development.

Assuming that you are building up to the border with your neighbour of course.

Charlie

[MSA]

The latest PD legislation, as per SC's link, came out in Oct '08.

At the time, as is the case with most Gov't legislation, confusion reigned as to the correct interpretation of the wording therein.

One particular example being the interpretation of Class A.1(e) ''extend beyond the rear wall of the original dwelling house..''.

A lot of houses have more than one rear wall, so were you allowed to extend out from each rear wall or the furthest rear wall?

Some Local Authority's interpreted it as the former, others the latter.

It is only when trying to interpret legislation that confusion and anomolies will appear, no precedents have been set, and there are no similar case studies and/or planning appeal decisions to refer to.

So, after nearly 2 years of feedback, the Gov't brought out a useful Technical Guidance in Aug '10 to help clarify the legislation, and hopefully overcome such confusion.

On page 17 of the guide it clarifies what is acceptable in the rear wall scenario I cited above.

Charlie, could you please clarify what part of the legislation you are referring to.

[Senor Chevalier]

Useful link MSA - bottom of p22 / top of p23 show the the typical side return situation and it seems more than 3m back breaches the rear wall rule as each rear wall is considered. So unless going for a very modest side return extension, planning permission would be needed.

However if only going 3m then my read is you could proceed under PD to the boundary as long as no higher than 3m (though Char1ie has different views clearly...)

[char1ie]

Planning regulations say that any development within five meters of a boundary require planning permission. Therefore it doesn't matter about the 3m building under PD as you will need to get permission. I'm not referring to height or distance from walls. It sounds like the OP is building up to the boundary with the neighbour's property, so planning permission will be required.

Charlie

[Senor Chevalier]

Char1ie - Which Planning Regs are you referring to. The link I posted is to the primary legislation "The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Amendment) (No. 2) (England) Order 2008)".

Part A.1(g) for example states that where the development is within 2m of a boundary the eaves need to be less than 3m in height.

I'm not sure why they would specify this if nothing within 5m of the boundary is permitted as you are saying. If both are true then then the PD law would be irrelevant and confusing....

Do you have a specific reference for where your 5m rule comes from other than "planning regulations"?

[smb12]

Hi

Many thanks for the information. It sounds like I need planning for the kitchen (and a neighbour who is having similiar work done has just confirmed this as well) so I guess my next stop will be Southwark - good to hear they are amenable. Fingers crossed it goes smoothly!

[Peckham native]

There's no longer a duty planner service at the Walworth Road One Stop Shop. You can still phone and speak to a duty planner 10am to 4pm Monday to Friday on 020 7525 5438

[MSA]

Charlie, I'd too be interested to know what you are referring to..........

Senor Chevalier Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Char1ie - Which Planning Regs are you referring

> to. The link I posted is to the primary

> legislation "The Town and Country Planning

> (General Permitted Development) (Amendment) (No.

> 2) (England) Order 2008)".

>

> Part A.1(g) for example states that where the

> development is within 2m of a boundary the eaves

> need to be less than 3m in height.

>

> I'm not sure why they would specify this if

> nothing within 5m of the boundary is permitted as

> you are saying. If both are true then then the PD

> law would be irrelevant and confusing....

>

> Do you have a specific reference for where your 5m

> rule comes from other than "planning regulations"?

[pascalbuildteam]

Hi guys,

We?ve actually recently developed an App for Side Return Kitchen Extensions that estimates the cost of the build. Maybe your readers might find it useful?

I?ve included the link below, please contact me if you want to know any more.

http://www.buildteam.com/build-your-price-start

Kind Regards

Pascal