Replacement Double Glazed Windows - advice on type of window

[Sue]

I have one of the bog standard Edwardian/Victorian small three bed ED terraced houses (not extended in any direction :)) ).

I presently have single glazed wooden sash windows in most of my house (apart from three at the back which have been replaced with double glazed PVC windows for various reasons).

As my bay is collapsing and in the middle of being repaired, I want to take the opportunity to replace the sash windows at the front.

I was going to have the same PVC ones as I have in my middle bedroom, which are vaguely similar in appearance to the original sash windows (though don't have a sash).

I was intending to go with PVC for maintenance (and relative cheapness) reasons.

A doubt has been put in my mind after a friend recoiled at the mention of PVC windows in a period house (which still has period features outside and downstairs).

Years ago I looked at this and wooden double glazed windows were extortionately expensive, plus I was concerned about maintenance of wood.

I've also recently read something about putting double glazing/draughtproofing into existing single glazed sash windows (though not sure mine are worth saving).

Can anybody offer any useful thoughts on this? I'd be really grateful.

I have another issue as well relating to the windows, but I'll start another thread to avoid confusing the issue!

[KidKruger]

I had a quote from Bespoke a couple of years ago for my bay window (three windows) I think they wanted around ?5K which seemed mental to me !

I'm doing same this year and probably will have Runcent make wooden sash windows set with double-glazed panels. Maintaining painted wooden windows, especially at ground-level like for a bay, is one of the easier window related jobs as long as they're checked and touched-up where necessary each year (but you may not fancy that from sound of it).

The draught question still stands though, if you have wooden sashes with double-glazing, however well made windows should shut pretty tightly.

[Lowlander]

Wood is preferable for a period property and will last 100+ years if looked after which is probably more environmentally friendly.

However...the capital cost and maintenance is higher...

If you do go for uPvc, do get sash. The best design - open the top and bottom a bit to get far superior circulation to anything else.

[Sue]

Does anybody have any recommendations for companies for wood windows, to get costs, please?

Only if you have used them yourself and would recommend them, thanks.

[KidKruger]

I mentioned Runcent above Sue, I've had box and sash windows made by them in timber a few times.

From memory I think they have a fitting service available, I haven't used it as did mine myself so I cannot advise quality of fitting service.

But windows are decent IMO and never had problems dealing with them on windows or other work.

I don't know these days how Runcent rate pricewise or anything else in comparison to other providers.

[d walker]

I also have bog standard victorian terrace. I initially was against uPVC windows but having seen my neighbours was impressed. They used Bespoke Windows, so I too used them and replaced all my front windows several years ago ,they're not cheap but IMO excellent quality. They even put in curve at top so the windows look identical to originals. Most people assume my windows are the original as they look same.

[bob]

We also used Bespoke to replace our wooden sash windows not cheap but look just like the originals four large windows in and out in two days.

Bob S

[Sue]

Thanks all.

If Bespoke is the company near the Plough, I had quotes from them in the past which were very expensive for PVC, and I didn't particularly like the styles, however I will check them out for wood.

I used Scenic windows for my three existing windows, and was quite happy with them apart from the catches on the sash window, the style of which changed after I ordered them and are hideous, so I wouldn't want those catches again.

Paul would replace the catches but I can't find any which would fit which are less hideous, and I wouldn't want hideous catches in my living room.

If Runcent is the company in North Cross Road, it has had bad reviews on here in the past if memory serves, however I will check them out again, thanks.

If anybody is happy for me to look at their windows (from the outside) could they PM me their address?

Thanks!

[kristymac1]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does anybody have any recommendations for

> companies for wood windows, to get costs, please?

>

> Only if you have used them yourself and would

> recommend them, thanks.

We used Sash Smart http://www.sashsmart.co.uk/company/ a small family business based in Croydon. It was a few years ago now (but I see from the website that Chris and his Dad - far right of photo) are still involved. They provided one of the best services of any contractors we have employed (and we've done a lot of renovation on 2 different homes), they were hardworking, clean, polite and reliable - and also very reasonable cost-wise.

[malumbu]

Oak Joinery in Lee Green is S... Hot. They made me a casement frame and windows ten years ago which I have painted once. My soft wood ones, particularly the replacement ones, peel and rot on an annual basis.

You can also ask them about slimlite double glazing - I'd get this fitted as some of my efforts have now got condensation in them.

The windows will come with rebated seals - spot on. You can DIY but again my experience is mixed. I'd call them on 020 8297 2993 as not sure the link below is theirs or not!

http://www.westlondonwindows.co.uk/

Slimlite http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/

Reddiseals

https://www.reddiseals.com/

[Sue]

Thanks malumbu, I'll check them out too.

[KidKruger]

Keep us posted Sue, I?m hot on your heels..

[Sue]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Keep us posted Sue, I?m hot on your heels..

Well I certainly won't be fitting any windows myself :))

It's got a bit less pressing because the stone mason/builders now aren't starting on my bay reconstruction till the end of February :(

ETA: And nobody can take any measurements for windows until the reconstruction has finished, because the window spaces will change :(

[James Barber]

If you change the windows appearance you are supposed to get Planning Permission. So if you don't and try selling your home in the next 12 years you'll have a serious hiccup and after the 12 years would still have issues selling.

Good wooden double glazed sash windows would be a great eco improvement and likely to add value to your property. uPVC are viewed in a variety of ways by future potential buyers - you could always speak to an estate agent.

[Sue]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you change the windows appearance you are

> supposed to get Planning Permission. So if you

> don't and try selling your home in the next 12

> years you'll have a serious hiccup and after the

> 12 years would still have issues selling.

>

> Good wooden double glazed sash windows would be a

> great eco improvement and likely to add value to

> your property. uPVC are viewed in a variety of

> ways by future potential buyers - you could always

> speak to an estate agent.

Crikey, I didn't know I needed planning permission.

Can you point me to a website where that is laid out, please?

Many houses in my street have PVC double glazing, and most of those look nothing like the original sash windows. I think they are an abomination. To the best of my knowledge none of the owners have had any problem selling them.

Many things would add value to my house, but that doesn't mean I intend to undertake them!

I am interested in your saying that wooden windows would be an eco improvement. I have a relative who is an alternative energy consultant, and I don't think he would agree. There are a number of factors to take into account, obviously.

Speaking to an estate agent is a good idea, thanks.

[James Barber]

Hi sue,

Please see planning portal here - https://interactive.planningportal.co.uk/detached-house/outside/windows-and-doors

"

It states you DO NOT usually need planning permission if:

- repairs, maintenance, and minor improvements, such as repainting window and door frames

- insertion of new windows and doors that are of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the house (note ? a new bay window will be treated as an extension and may require permission)

"

So uPVC non sash windows replacing wooden sash windows would need planning permission. If you look at the planning list you'll see a steady trickle of these planning applications. One was of telling a reputable installer is if they point this out.

Hard wood windows have better fire resistance than plastic ones. The materials in making plastic windows are worse in the manufacture and eventual disposal when they one day get replaced than wooden ones. Both can be double or triple glazed so neutral on that one.

[Sue]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi sue,

> Please see planning portal here -

> https://interactive.planningportal.co.uk/detached-

> house/outside/windows-and-doors

>

> "

> It states you DO NOT usually need planning

> permission if:

> - repairs, maintenance, and minor improvements,

> such as repainting window and door frames

> - insertion of new windows and doors that are of a

> similar appearance to those used in the

> construction of the house (note ? a new bay window

> will be treated as an extension and may require

> permission)

> "

>

> So uPVC non sash windows replacing wooden sash

> windows would need planning permission. If you

> look at the planning list you'll see a steady

> trickle of these planning applications. One was of

> telling a reputable installer is if they point

> this out.

>

> Hard wood windows have better fire resistance than

> plastic ones. The materials in making plastic

> windows are worse in the manufacture and eventual

> disposal when they one day get replaced than

> wooden ones. Both can be double or triple glazed

> so neutral on that one.

But I'm replacing the windows with ones that look identical to the sash windows that are there now.

I'm not replacing them with "non sash windows."

[hpsaucey]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> James Barber Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Hi sue,

> > Please see planning portal here -

> >

> https://interactive.planningportal.co.uk/detached-

>

> > house/outside/windows-and-doors

> >

> > "

> > It states you DO NOT usually need planning

> > permission if:

> > - repairs, maintenance, and minor improvements,

> > such as repainting window and door frames

> > - insertion of new windows and doors that are of

> a

> > similar appearance to those used in the

> > construction of the house (note ? a new bay

> window

> > will be treated as an extension and may require

> > permission)

> > "

> >

> > So uPVC non sash windows replacing wooden sash

> > windows would need planning permission. If you

> > look at the planning list you'll see a steady

> > trickle of these planning applications. One was

> of

> > telling a reputable installer is if they point

> > this out.

> >

> > Hard wood windows have better fire resistance

> than

> > plastic ones. The materials in making plastic

> > windows are worse in the manufacture and

> eventual

> > disposal when they one day get replaced than

> > wooden ones. Both can be double or triple

> glazed

> > so neutral on that one.

>

>

> But I'm replacing the windows with ones that look

> identical to the sash windows that are there now.

>

> I'm not replacing them with "non sash windows."

Was thinking the same as Sue - 'similar appearance' doesn't imply same materials.

HP (also interested as also looking for windows ....)

PS - site above also says this: It also says this:

'If you replace a window(s) in your home, or any other type of building, the Building Regulations:

- will normally apply if you are replacing the whole of the fixed frame and opening parts or creating new openings for windows or doors

- will not normally apply if the work amounts to no more than, for example, replacing broken glass, rotten sashes or rotten sections of the main frame members.

Replacement of external doors with 50 per cent glazing or more will require approval.

For replacement windows and glazed doors, if the contractor carrying out the work is registered with one of the relevant Competent Person Schemes, then you would not need to make an application.'

[KidKruger]

For what you?re proposing Sue you?ll be fine.

[diable rouge]

HP, that all relates to Building Regs, Sue is concerned about planning permission which is a separate issue.

This Gov guide states that 'rebuilding' comes under development that requires permission... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/when-is-permission-required

That then begs the question is what Sue's doing rebuilding or simply a repair?

It always pays to call the planners and discuss, and if they say PP is not needed, get it in writing...

[Sue]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> HP, that all relates to Building Regs, Sue is

> concerned about planning permission which is a

> separate issue.

> This Gov guide states that 'rebuilding' comes

> under development that requires permission...

> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/when-is-permission-req

> uired

> That then begs the question is what Sue's doing

> rebuilding or simply a repair?

> It always pays to call the planners and discuss,

> and if they say PP is not needed, get it in

> writing...

The whole of my effing bay is to be rebuilt, and as it's an insurance job I'm assuming they know about PP and such.

I asked about the windows and insurance on this thread:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,1996902,1996902#msg-1996902

but sadly nobody has offered any advice :(

[diable rouge]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > HP, that all relates to Building Regs, Sue is

> > concerned about planning permission which is a

> > separate issue.

> > This Gov guide states that 'rebuilding' comes

> > under development that requires permission...

> >

> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/when-is-permission-req

>

> > uired

> > That then begs the question is what Sue's doing

> > rebuilding or simply a repair?

> > It always pays to call the planners and

> discuss,

> > and if they say PP is not needed, get it in

> > writing...

>

>

> The whole of my effing bay is to be rebuilt, and

> as it's an insurance job I'm assuming they know

> about PP and such.

Don't assume anything, you will be responsible if it's wrong, not them...

[Sue]

The link you gave says this is not considered as "development":

building operations which do not materially affect the external appearance of a building. The term ?materially affect? has no statutory definition, but is linked to the significance of the change which is made to a building?s external appearance.

The insurance company are employing a stone mason to ensure that the bay is rebuilt as it was, including retaining and replacing the existing original Victorian/Edwardian mouldings.