Gardens Cafe - what is going on?

[Saffron]

awilliams123 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bellenden Belle Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > This is a really interesting development.

> > For years that building was shut with planning

> > permissions for a cafe / restaurant constantly

> > refused because of its location in a

> residential

> > area. Have a look at the site's history of

> > planning applications:

> >

> http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/mgConvert2PDF.

>

> > aspx?ID=20906

> >

> > One of the key differences which I suspect led

> to

> > planning permission finally being granted was

> the

> > "Change of use of the ground floor to

> > cafe/restaurant (Class A3) with a community

> room

> > (Class D1) for meetings and local artist

> display

> > function".

> >

> > I don't have a background in planning - but a

> > quick google defines D1 as "D1: Non-Residential

> > Institutions - Surgeries, health centres,

> cr?ches,

> > nurseries, day centres, art galleries, museums,

> > libraries, halls, churches and non-residential

> > education and training centres."

> >

> > Seems to me that if they have moved a deli into

> > that space they have actually changed its

> usage,

> > depriving the community of the very space that

> no

> > doubt contributed them to being granted

> permission

> > to use that site in the first place. This makes

> me

> > very cross indeed - I have asked Cllr James

> Barber

> > in the main East Dulwich issues section to

> > investigate.

>

>

> That is VERY interesting indeed...they absolutely

> have changed the use.

Haven't been round recently. So is there now nowhere in the cafe not only for toddler groups, but also nowhere for local art display/meetups? I went to my friend's art show in the function room (now the deli?), and it was a brilliant use of the space. If there is now no function room at all, then it would appear that the use of the space is indeed significantly altered by it loss. I'm quite curious to know what light can be shed on this by Cllr J. B. or others. It does seem an odd turn of events. I also think the line about prams being a health and safety issue is total rubbish. Plenty of other places cope just fine with this issue. Buggies can always be moved and/or folded to accommodate exits and walkways.

[amyw]

i was at the gardens cafe today and it was rammed with families - mostly mothers with babies or toddlers, an nct group, etc.

i agree the loss of the back room is disappointing but the cafe itself is still there and still a good place to visit with kids and buggies.

its not true to say they aren't child friendly - they absolutely are. e.g. - my niece wandered around the back of the till and when i got there to intercept her one of the staff was chatting to her while she waited for me to get her.

no cafe in ED is perfect in all areas (e.g. i think the gardens can be hit and miss on the service) but i don't think its fair to slag them off if you haven't at least gone to make up your own mind about it.

[sillywoman]

Yes, after all my grumpiness earlier in the thread I was there today too with a group of Mums & babies. It was heaving - I've never seen it so busy. The one (as far as my experience shows) nice waitress was serving - possibly the same one that was chatting to your niece amyw? I have to say that I have found the others, and the owner to be fairly surly and even a bit unhelpful in the past.

I did stop & chat briefly with one of my Mums groups who were sat around a table in the back room, so they do still have seating there, just much less of it because of the deli counter. Anyway judging by today their trade isn't suffering at all!

Thanks for the other suggestions, I'll check out the bread-of-life, and I do love the Actress - I'd never thought of going there in the day. What time do they open, does anyone know? Also, on the recommendation of another forumite (thanks Ruth) I went to the Mum & baby group at "The Crooked Well" on Grove Lane today. It was absolutely lovely, I highly recommend it. They have great big sofa's and a lot of space for babies (and Mums & Dads). The owners were really welcoming and said that they're trialing it to see if they get enough parents to make it worthwhile. I really hope thye do because it's good to see stuff happening in North ED/ South Camberwell. And they've made it a really good pub if you fancy an evening out too - she said their food has had very good reviews in the Observer & suchlike. So if you're stuck for something to do on a Friday morning, you could do a lot worse than head to 'the Crooked Well' for a hot choc and some chat.

[oimissus]

that's great that they do still seem to welcome families, but the salient point is surely that if they got planning permission because it would have a community space at the back, they should not have got rid of it, particularly as it was being used by the community! It's not all that local to me (I drove / bussed to Tippee Toes there) so I don't pop in, but would anyone be able to highlight this thread to them so someone could respond to it?

[amyw]

the salient point in my opinion is the original complaint of the post, that its no longer child friendly. i'd hate for this thread to put potential customers off, and i think these threads do put people off. although obviously not all of ED reads the forum.

and looks like B.Belle has already flagged the potential planning issue on the james barber thread. and we don't know for sure that there has been any contravention of their planning permission, so why slag them off based on 'if' they have done something wrong?

i'll butt out now but if you have an issue with a business your first point of call should be that business and give them a chance to rectify your issue. so many small businesses get slagged off on this forum for really subjective problems especially when the posters haven't actually raised it with the business.

i really hope it doesn't stop anyone from trying it themselves.

nb: i don't know why this annoys me so much, but it does!

[oimissus]

aye, fair point! Just feeling very cross about the class being cancelled . . . Will wait to hear what JB comes back with.

[Help-Ma-Boab]

Non parent here. Was in last sat. Felt better to me than it ever has in terms of a warm atmosphere. As far as I could tell there was a mix of mums, dads, couples and god forbid singles all rubbing along nicely.

Going there for brunch tomorrow and expect/hope for the same with that nice mix of users. It's really not that horrendous that they have changed things a bit, seems welcoming to me. I do take Bellenden Belles point re licence, but do give it a go with an open mind. You may not actually notice that much difference, and maybe discussion with management could put your mind at rest, and turn the new deli area into a space for you when required during the weekday afternoons. Wouldn't take much for them to do so.

I will return to the lounge, oh, and you are all welcome, of course at the 5th running of the Barry Barry Road Race

2012. Under 5's need only drink a half pint!

[reren]

Your point is a good one, Amy - and we should all be aware of the dangers to a small business when we criticise them online. However I think the critical thing here is that parents of toddlers obviously really valued the back room at the gardens. Few cafes or pubs in the area really cater for small moving children - despite it being such a child focused area. It was so great to have a basket of toys and room for children to move around - within the context of an attractive cafe. I think the fact that there was no communication to customers to warn them of the change is part of what has annoyed me - but mostly I'm just sad because it takes away one of my regular places. I have always found the staff friendly and welcoming - so I certainly wouldn't suggest that they are unfriendly to children - but the removal of the room makes it just like other cafes in the area and takes away a big part of its appeal.

[swagstar]

Is it just the loss of the back room you are all talking about? I went the other day and still thought it was good for babies.

[reren]

Babies yes - toddlers no...I look back w great fondness at the many hours spent in all the different cafes of e dulwich. Once the baby gets mobile you are hugely limited - a room w some toys becomes invaluable - thus the angst!

[amyw]

yes thats fair reren, there is that element of always running after your toddler which wasn't such a problem in the back room esp as if i remember correctly you could shut the door!?

I'm sure they would respond well to feedback though, as there may be some compromise. i can see the potential for a small play area in between the 2 couches for example although this would take away some table space.

its such a lovely spacious cafe, you never feel stupid wheeling a pram in there.

[Hesmall1]

Agree with Reren, with mobile babes, the back room with the playmats, toys and room to move meant our LOs weren't wreaking havoc in the main cafe and potentially disturbing other patrons.

My NCT friends and I have been going to The Gardens weekly for the past 6/7 months for lunches or afternoon coffees and cakes, so imagine our surprise when we turned up last Friday afternoon with a reservation for the backroom to find the deli relocated and the play area gone. We weren't advised of the change and faced two grumpy waitresses not very happy to make space for us on the couches in the main cafe. We'd been accepting the sometimes cold/grumpy service and average food because of the great space they had, but we'll now look to check out some new places in and around ED.

Thanks for the recommendations! I'll be watching with interest what the local Councillor responds with.

[willjac]

There's the Victoria Inn - a little further afield I know - but has a fantastic jungle themed playroom perfect for toddlers

http://www.victoriainnpeckham.com/pub/kid's-room.aspx

[Audrey]

Going off on a tangent, and quite a few posts back, BUT,

North East Dulwich?????? South Camberwell????

I can't decide if thats a geographers conundrum or an Estate Agents wet dream.

Grove Lane, - its Camberwell.

[oimissus]

that's a good point about the Victoria, I wonder if they'd be up for having their room used for Tippee Toes - will suggest it to Kim.

[Bozza]

Went to the Garden's cafe for lunch before Christmas, the space is great and the food was really good this time. Went for the first time shortly after they had opened and was not very impressed by the food and their pricing, also service was not quite there yet. This time the food was good, however, we had to wait at least an hour for our food. We were there with 3 babies who were getting hungrier and hungrier. Yes it was busy but the time we got the food but not when we ordered. We asked 3-4 times for the food but every time we were told it was nearly ready. No apologies, no offer about a free coffee or anything. Won't be going back again.