Help: new born misery!

[bee74]

I have a 3 week old baby and I can't remember this misery/hell with my first, so please either offer advice or remind me that all babies including my first are like this!

So here it goes. She is a grazer: feeds for 2-10 minutes at the time, then rest for 5-15 minutes then wants to feed again. This means I always have my boobs half out and I stuggle to manage my older (3 years) because I have to start and stop constantly.

The newborn seems to be putting on weight, so this feeding pattern might be working for her on one level. But on the other, she also seems very windy and during the breaks within feeds, she cries in pain or discomfort. I think she might be getting windier because of the air she sucks in while crying. I have reduced dairy and tried Dentinox, now I am trying a herbal teas for windy babies. Recently she also seems to cry because she only wants to be held.

Last but not least, she takes forever to get settled: 2-3 hours so that I am awake almost all night with her crying. Inevitably i resort to feeding more and then between boob and exhaustion she eventually falls asleep...

I think this is it.

Thank you.

[sunbob]

Hello Bee. My first baby fed like you describe, in v short chunks, as breast feeding just seemed to send her to sleep. Is your little oone a sleepy feeder? I found various ideas for keepiing awake whilst feeding (eg strip off clothes so there colder, tickle feet etc) you could do some googling for more ideas and try them out. The only one that worked for mine was to put her down as soon as she stopped actively drinking then pick up again when she woke (usually 1 min later) . Sorry you are having such a hard time, it is a different level of hard work/exhaustion when you have 2 isn't it.

[simonethebeaver]

That does sound tough. I thought it would be nice for you to get some sympathy even if I can't offer great advice! Have you had anyone check her latch? It might be that she's struggling to get enough milk. I know you've done it before but every baby is different. Has she been checked for tongue tie? That can really effect the efficiency of feeding and also lead to wind if she's taking in air as well as milk.

Why not give the King's breastfeeding specialists a call? I know they're very busy but try to see everyone they can. 020 3299 3833. If you have trouble getting through or want to see someone in your own home, there are some brilliant lactation consultants around who will come and sit with you and watch you feed to give you an idea of what might be going on. I had Verona Hall, who was very good, and also saw Anna Cannon at the breastfeeding cafe at the Rosendale Children's Centre on a Wednesday morning. Jill Dye was very supportive at the tongue tie clinic we attended too. You could try one of the breastfeeding cafes too - the one on Thursday afternoons in Peckham library is meant to be very good.

I hope you find some support and help soon.

[buggie]

I think the br feeding cafe is on a Thurs morning - found it really useful with Bugglet and would second the advice to attend (there were often mums with toddlers there so wouldn't be difficult to take your older child too.

While Bugglet wasn't a grazer, it was v difficult to get her to feed, and the big bit of advice Joanne (one of the br feeding consultant mw's @ kings) gave me was to use the same boob for any feeds within 3hrs to ensure bubs got the hind milk and wasn't too gassy.

Fingers crossed things settle for you both soon x

[trinity]

Hi Bee. Sounds like you are having a tough time - you have all my sympathy.

I had a little girl that sounds very similar to yours. Grazing all day and very difficult/impossible to settle. My 'breakthrough' came when I realised that the problem was not feeding but the fact she was not getting enough sleep during the day and so was constantly grumpy and needed constant comfort ie boob. In addition no-one seemed to understand that when I said she she feeding all day I literally meant all day. (I also had 3 others to look after and life was a nightmare.

If you are happy that she is getting enough milk (the suggestions made by other ladies on here are very helpful) then I would concentrate on helping her to nap during the day. There is a fantastic book by Dr Harvey Karp that talks about the 4th trimester ie new born babies often need the comfort of the womb for 3 months after they are born. This means - swaddling, movement (in particular swinging movement) and noise (often white noise) in order to soothe them. If you can recreate these for you little one she will sleep better and feed in a better pattern for you and her.

As a desperate measure I bought a baby swing for my daughter when she was 8 weeks old. For the first time in her life she slept for 3 hours and I wept tears of joy. She needed to sleep and couldn't do without very specific conditions. Your daughter may need different conditions but I think trying to create the right sleep conditions for her would help both of you.

Good luck

[littlemoo]

Bee,

Could it be reflux? Reflux babies are not always sicky, with silent reflux they often get uncomfortable while feeding (like yours does) and then when lying down hence the trouble settling to sleep unless being held in an upright position. I would keep an eye on it, try feeding her in a more upright position (ds would feed almost sitting upright on my lap) and maybe try tilting the cot/ moses basket. Also speak to your hv or gp about silent relfux. One real sign is when they arch away from you while feeding.

[Saffron]

buggie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> While Bugglet wasn't a grazer, it was v difficult

> to get her to feed, and the big bit of advice

> Joanne (one of the br feeding consultant mw's @

> kings) gave me was to use the same boob for any

> feeds within 3hrs to ensure bubs got the hind milk

> and wasn't too gassy.

There's seems to be a large variety in production and letdown dynamics among women, and every baby's latch is different too. We had a similar newborn (eg, frequent feeder) and were given similar advice, re feed off same breast w/in the hour. This didn't work out for us. In fact it made things a great deal worse!

What made things better was always offering both breasts at each feed, but then alternating which breast you start a feed on (to ensure getting hind milk). Every mother-baby dyad is different, so you may need to try a few different things to find out what works best.

Re wind, Little Saff was sometimes very difficult to wind. Sometime I would try for ages with no success. If no wind comes up soon after a feed, then there may not be any.

Finally, the appearance of digestive pain in babies is not always from trapped gas. Sometimes it is due to normal physiological changes in adujusting to the digestive process (even in b/f babies). It will pass.

Do you have a postnatal doula or someone to help around the house? I had zero help, and it was torture. Family all lives miles away, friends all work, no doula, no cleaner, husband working weekends too... what was I thinking?! If you live near to us, maybe Little Saff (now 2 years old) and I could pop round sometime to give you a break? We're in SE4. There are quite a few stay-at-home parents in Dulwich and surround. Hope you find someone to help. xx

[EmilyE]

Poor you. I don't think that sounds totally just how having a new baby is.

I'd really second checking for latch/tongue tie. I turned up as a wreck to my baby's 6 week check, and managed to convince the doctor that I was necessarily suffering from PND, and described the symptoms and she got me referred for a tongue tie check, even though I said it couldn't be as it didn't match up with what I thought tongue tie was. However it was, and two weeks after a minor operation I had a different baby on my hands.

Before it was very similar to you - he fed very quickly, very often and wouldn't sleep for long - 40 minutes was the absolute max - and basically stayed in my arms crying for 6 weeks, being windy and clearly uncomfortable.

Good luck, the other suggestions all sound very sensible too. I hope something works.

[bee74]

thank you everyone.

I had a homebirth and midwives saw her latching and feeding and said there is no problem with it. No tongue tie either (not painful anyway). She does manage one long nap a day (2 1/2 hours) normally, it is the nights that are a killer - every 50 min last night!

I think she is very difficult to wind as littlemoo says. And I probably do wrong when I use feeding as a way to settle. Trinity, I have tried Dr Karp in terms of swaddling (which helps a little bit), shshing (which doesn't help), rocking (which doesn't help much)... I am reluctant to introduce dummy, but it's next to me as we speak and very tempted to give it to her as she is wailing...

Buggie, I m only feeding from one boob due to med problems, but I have a lot of milk and donated to Kings for 2 years. Let down is fast so I lay down or back.

I have appoint with Breastfeeding Clinic at Kings next week.

Sunbob, I'll try to take her off when she dozes of as I also think prob is she doesn't eat enough and so constantly hungry...

Thank you

[sanity girl]

Hi Bee,

my daughter was also similar as a newborn - constantly falling asleep while feeding and waking every 45 minutes at night. I did the tickling feet/cheek trick while she was feeding to stop her from falling asleep/wake her up again. I also gave her a dummy (godsend) and had one of those baby swings to put her in when I needed to do stuff (also a godsend) - worth a try? Her feeding patterns settled down by the time she was a couple of months old and her night wakings were down to 2 by the time she was 4 months. My son was completely different - napped for 4 hours at a time during the day, cluster fed in the evenings, slept all night for the first three months, refused a dummy - now at 16 months he's a bit of a nightmare! Hope it all improves for you soon, and when things get bad just repeated the mantra "it will pass, it will pass" :)

[Saffron]

If your LO will take a bottle, could your partner or someone else give Baby expressed milk in the evening or early morning, so you can have a break?

It isn't wrong to use feeding as a way to settle, especially at such a young age. It's how babies are programmed, and it's what mothers have been doing for thousands of years. It's an artefact of Modernity that we see comfort-sucking or feeding to sleep as undesirable.

The behavioural need for comfort-sucking/non-nutritive sucking is no less a real physiological need, just b/c it's related to comfort rather than hunger. If a soother helps, it helps. Don't worry about it. Some babies have a stronger internal drive for this than others. Either way is normal. If there's no tongue-tie, reflux etc, then you may just have a "sucky" baby.

Would a ring-sling help? I have one you can borrow for a test run. Sometimes I ran all my local errands with Little Saff asleep on my boob in the sling. The sling can be adjusted so that no one sees your breast at all. Every mother-baby dyad is different of course, but for me this was much better than pushing a bawling baby around in a buggy. xx

[Fuschia]

Fast let Down can cause wind

http://kellymom.com/bf/supply/fast-letdown.html

[childsleepsolutions]

Poor you!! How stressful! If the breastfeeding clinic does not help and she does not improve do consider silent reflux. The short, bobbing on and off feeds could be a sign as is the crying and appearing windy. Is she a noisy, grunty sleeper, does she arch her back, hiccup a lot, thrash?? All symptoms of reflux.

Regarding your concern of feeding to sleep, this may not be ideal and be considered a 'no no', however, she is way to young for you to worry too much about this, even if she goes down once a day without this then that is great (though if you can't manage this do not worry), and any habits you think you are forming now will not be deeply entrenched. I am a child sleep consultant and can assure you that no habits that form now cannot be overcome and at the moment you need to do what you can to get through the tricky first few weeks.

Good luck x Nicola

[jollybaby]

Nicola - I so wish someone had told me that in the early days. It is so easy to worry about forming bad habits and using props. I remember reading about a woman who used to drive her child around for hours a day as it was the only way she could sleep, and was so terrified that that would be me.

Bee - sorry to hear that you are having a tough time. I think 3 -4 weeks was my lowest point. The excitement and adrenaline of having the new baby had worn off and I was totally knackered. My salvation came when Mr Jb started giving her an evening bottle and taking over the shift between 8pm and midnight and so whatever happened I knew that I would get a stretch of 3-4 hours sleep. I could survive on that. Don't forget to keep eating and drinking too - I was very bad at keeping myself fed and watered and then be surprised when I felt so much better after a snack.

[hanstands]

Hello Bee -- so sorry to hear how tough it is for you right now...it will get better...My first was a bit like this, and the only way he slept in the day was in a sling or swaddled. As baby can be held upright in a sling it can help get the wind up and out too if it is taking ages to burp her...I have a stretchy wrap going spare if you don't have one?

[bee74]

Hi everyone

I have a sling, 3 in facts and she sleeps quite well in the stretchy one.

My partner is holding her as I type as I've tried to get her to fall asleep since 6.30 pm with no luck. She just cries.

Thanks Nicola, that helps. I am terrified that she will get used to certain 'rituals' to go to sleep (my partner singing a silly song and jiggling her..., althought that's not working either). She must be exuausted since she has been awake since 3.30 and I know that's far too long for a 3 week old. I will look into the silent reflux, ta.

The crying which was only during the night is now also during the day and I am losing the will to live. I find a baby's crying so unnerving and exhausting, especially when I am trying to attend to the needs of a three year old.

I keep telling myself this is just temporary, but it is still hard.

I will consider the bottle for the first 'night feed' excep there isn't a break between feeds, so even if my partner had a bottle, it would be difficult for me to sleep because the little one keeps nursing at night, which, together with the crying also at night, is what makes life so hard. I could live with it during the day.

Thank you

[chantelle]

wow, just want to add my sympathies, i have a 4.5 week old and now I feel spoiled to complain about not getting more than two hours sleep at a time. your daughter sound like my first born, who I and no one else can remember doing anything other than crying and feeding for several months. he literally never napped, just zonked out from time to time when out in the buggy! He did have bad reflux and the gaviscon and then ranitidine that he took did help somewhat.

My new little one (a girl) sleeps well, day and night, so I feel really lucky now. Unfortunately she wasn't getting enough milk off me despite constant feeding in the first couple of weeks so I am mix feeding now after she had to be admitted to hospital. For what it's worth, she does have some crazy long awake spells - like today from 3pm until 9:30pm - it was definitely her tummy giving her trouble.

best wishes and it really can only improve!

[simonethebeaver]

Bee, I'm glad you've got an appointment at the breastfeeding clinic and I hope things do improve. Just wanted to say that I also had a home birth, also had midwives observe latch and feeding, and also had no pain on feeding, but my baby had a posterior tongue tie that was only picked up at five weeks.

We had also had the advice about feeding repeatedly from one breast and for us, it was disastrous. I turned out to have low supply, partly from the tongue tie and partly from having breasts that don't really work. So feeding over and over from one breast was a really bad idea. I know you're only feeding from one, but I thought others reading this might want to know. We had very poor weight gain and it started to improve when I gave both breasts at each feed and stopped what now feels like torturing my poor underfed baby!

[bee74]

Simone, I wasn't adviced to feed from only one, it was a decision i took after my first born because I have a scar on one breast which means the skin is too thin to bear the sucking so keeps tearing open - bleeding and pussing. I am not advising anyone to do the same, in fact i woudl love to breastfeed from both as I feel like Dolly Parton on one side and Kate Moss on the other!

The advice of keeping her upright (not sure who suggested it) was helpful as last night at 3 am after an hour of crying, i suddenly remember and kept her up instead of trying to put her back to bed. She fell asleep after half hour and then 20 minutes later i put her on the bed. And she had a good nap.

I was in A&E yesterday because she fell off a child desk (!) and the pediatrician checked her tounge but only at the front, so i might ask Claire about posterior t tie. Thanks

Thank you for keeping the advice coming. And the sympathy does wonder as I don't feel like I am doing something wrong, that's just how she is and it will get better!

Thanks

[Saffron]

Have you thought of trying a Baby Hammock. We used an Amby "Nature's Nest" Hammock. If it turns out that Baby does have reflux, the hammock helps to keep baby tilted upward. They are expensive to buy new, but they have good resale value. You can often find them used in good condition on the Forum or elsewhere. They are also good for babies with colic and babies that are just generally hard to settle. The Amby is very light and you can easily move it from one room to another. xx

[littlemoo]

Bee,

If the keeping upright helped it sounds likely that it is reflux. Try letting her sleep on her side too as that was a god send. Having a fast let down really exacerbates reflux, especially as it means a lot of watery foremilk, which is harder to keep down. With W I used to express a bit off at the start (and would often get 120/150ml in less than a minute of hand pumping)then putting him on for a little drink and lots of thicker hind milk which is thicker and stays down easier.

Have a look at www.babyreflux.co.uk, it has a good library Of info on reflux.

Good luck!

[bee74]

I have an Amby but I have not started using it because the baby needs so much feeding at night, I find it's too much effort event to just lean over and take her from the side of the bed, I prefer her in bed with me. But I will try if - when!- she starts less at night. However i will def keep up with the upright feeding and settling.

And will ask the breastfeeding clinic about (silent) reflux.

[hanstands]

Glad there is a little improvement Bee! Another thing that helped us was to lie baby on his back and move legs gently in a cycling motion, which puts gentle pressure on gut to squeeze trapped wind out. Then gently tipping legs and feet up and back over tummy again with same results if done over and over. The other one that helped get the wind out was to massage the tummy this way: with your left hand make a circular motion in a clockwise direction. At the same time, use your right hand to make a half moon motion also in a clockwise direction but from top of the circle to the bottom following the right hand as it goes round and round...hmmm not sure that's very clear... its hard to describe...I think its called a sun and moon massage or something like that...so perhaps you can Google it if you feel its worth a go...

[bee74]

Handstands, I have been doing that a lot since it is part of postnatal and baby yoga, which I teach. In fact, thank you for mentioning it as i would recommend it for all babies regardless of whether they are windy or not.

[simonethebeaver]

Oh, Bee, sorry. I didn't think you were advising feeding from one breast. Someone else mentioned that they'd had the same advice with a similar bad outcome and I was hijacking your thread slightly to agree. Apologies, really. I'm glad some of the advice on here is helping though.