Southwark policy on replacing dead trees in SE22

[Reg Smeeton]

There are three stumps on Melbourne Grove where dead trees have been removed. In the past these trees would have been replaced by Southwark automatically, being more than 1.2m from the nearest fence/wall. But according to the new Southwark policy, the trees apparently no longer qualify for replacement. Taken to its logical conclusion, this means that most street trees around here won't be replaced when they die.

Fortunately Robin Crookshank (aka the tree lady) is on the case, and I understand that the three trees will now be replaced by smaller tree species.

[Passiflora]

I noticed trees being cut down on the Denmark Hill estate/Sunray estate recently and asked the workmen what was going on. Some of the trees were very small but the workmen said they were full of disease and had to be cut down.

[rch]

Hi Reg... profuse apologies for the delay in responding.

FYI, I've been continuing to liaise with the council's tree officer on addressing these issues bit by bit... it can sometimes take a while because of layers of past political machinations, but I'm getting to know the new councillors so we'll get there slowly but surely.

The Colwell stump and some of the Melbourne stumps will FINALLY get replanted in the spring. One of the ways of getting around the new specifications is to agree a smaller species of feature trees for the narrower pavements. Some of my past planting schemes (such as the splendid Japanese cherry tree Yoshino avenue on Winterbrook Road as well as the plane tree avenue on Lordship Lane) are now getting quite a bit of press coverage, so the tree officers are quite open to establishing a "Dulwich tree design scheme" that gives the area character.

The stump on Colwell was going to be cancelled, but it's now going to be replaced with a Yoshino, similar to the one up at the other end of Colwell (which the resident there also campaigned in tandem with me on). One of the Colwell residents suggested a Magnolia, which I tried to get agreed, but apparently Magnolias are too big for that space.

The two stumps on Melbourne between Colwell and Blackwater were going to be replaced with a smaller cherry specimen called Sunset Boulevard, but the one near Colwell is now cancelled because a resident objected, so we're going to try it out down by Blackwater to see how it works out in a narrow space.

The two stumps further down Melbourne towards EDG are going to be replaced with the original Chestnut species as the pavement is wide enough, so we'll hopefully retain the Victorian "grove" character to a certain extent.

Then, on the other side of Melbourne towards Grove Vale, there are two Yoshino cherries in the avenue there which were hit by lorries and both of them are going to be replaced with Yoshinos to maintain the Japanese cherry avenue.

Also, FYI, three of the plane trees on Lordship Lane (which were also damaged by lorries and wind) are going to be replaced with plane trees to maintain the avenue theme... there is a fourth one that needs to be replaced but I think we might have to wait another year for funding.

There's loads more information, I'll try to update better in the future...! Am also open to comments.

Passiflora... I'm working in tandem with a resident near Sunray on keeping the character of the street trees going there as well. If you Google Friends of Sunray Gardens (which has recently been relaunched), you can get in touch with the chair and then we can campaign to get some of those street trees replanted as well.

We're trying to form a network of residents who can work together, as unity tends to help overcome frustrating highway regulations, so will keep in touch on that as well.

Let me know if anyone wants to know anything else... you can see discussions on Twitter as well.

[cella]

Hi Robin

Can you advise on the position where Southwark have agreed to fell a tree due to subsidence in the nearby houses - do they plant new trees as the previous ones have been identified as the 'culprits'? Thanks.

[pecksniff]

Hi Robin

Is there a schedule for annual pruning of trees as noticed those particularly on Melbourne Grove , near shops on both sides , had become badly overgrown end growing towards windows. I contacted James McAsh who arranged for their recent pruning.

[geh]

Thank you to Robin for her continuing good work with SE22 trees

geh

[rch]

Hi Cella,

There's a complex legal process that the council/residents have to go through in order to demonstrate that the tree is genuinely causing subsidence before the council will agree to remove it. Therefore, once the tree is gone, the tree officers tend to steer away from replanting in that location (or there might even be a legal order in place to prevent a replanting).

In some instances, one way around the problem may be to agree to plant a smaller species, hence our experimentations, but everything depends on the location and other surrounding issues. Sometimes the council could move the new treepit two or three houses away to plant a smaller species, but that depends on lots of other things as well.

So, without seeing the actual location, it's hard to tell and I would guess that there will be no replanting scheme in place...

[rch]

Hi pecksniff...

The maintenance/pruning budget is separate to the tree planting budget and therefore more difficult to access. Tree maintenance tends to be directed more towards larger trees lining the main roads... the schedule used to be rotated every three years, but I think it's pushed back to every five years now.

I noted the Melbourne Grove cherry tree pruning issues to the tree officer a while ago after a resident spoke to me during one of the street events (possibly you?) but I'm not important enough to flag revenue expenses, so you did the right thing going to the councillor.

On the other hand, I cringe when I walk down there now because they did a weird job on the trees - over cutting some of them but leaving snapped branches on others... so, I would have really liked to have known about the pruning so that I could have flagged certain issues in advance.

FYI, I think the tree in front of the Pharmacy must have been removed as a result of this pruning exercise, as the pharmacist asked me to have it replaced (which is why it's on the replanting list). According to the pharmacist, the tree was only meant to be pruned, but the tree officer said that it was deemed to be too damaged by a lorry, so it was better to remove and replant.

Also, FYI... you probably aren't aware that I have personally been maintaining those trees for years... I cut back the low branches blocking the pavement every year, but I can't reach the higher branches.

I keep meaning to liaise better with the new councillors on the historical local tree schemes (and a couple of other things), so that we are all on the same page, but I've been buried in fighting serious Thames Water burst water main damage to my own property, which James McCash is being extremely supportive on (thanks, James!).

Will try to update better slowly but surely...

[rch]

Thanks for the acknowledgement, geh!

I have been so astonished at what huge difference the trees make to the whole area, that I can't stop myself now... I do try to always liaise/consult with the local residents nearby all the locations and will change species or even cancel or move a location if it doesn't suit... communication is really important, as trees should be a community uniting factor, not a divisive factor.

[cella]

rch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi Cella,

>

> There's a complex legal process that the

> council/residents have to go through in order to

> demonstrate that the tree is genuinely causing

> subsidence before the council will agree to remove

> it. Therefore, once the tree is gone, the tree

> officers tend to steer away from replanting in

> that location (or there might even be a legal

> order in place to prevent a replanting).

>

> In some instances, one way around the problem may

> be to agree to plant a smaller species, hence our

> experimentations, but everything depends on the

> location and other surrounding issues. Sometimes

> the council could move the new treepit two or

> three houses away to plant a smaller species, but

> that depends on lots of other things as well.

>

> So, without seeing the actual location, it's hard

> to tell and I would guess that there will be no

> replanting scheme in place...

Thanks. It's just that 2 other trees have been removed in the last few years for the same reason so just thought the might consider planting different trees as it appears the wrong type were planted relatively recently and our road is looking a little bare. We will see what both parties say.

[rch]

Yes, talk to the residents in the first instance... if you let me know the road then I'll try to have a walk around there and let you know what I think.

FYI, one of the smaller trees we're trying out are small cherry trees called Sunset Boulevard. If you plant several in a row then they visually fill the road without getting too big.

[PeckhamRose]

Hi rch. I photo'd these trees from the position of The Clockhouse towards the main entrance to the park. As you can see one of the trees has been severely trimmed whilst the others have been left. Any ideas why? Looks so odd. Lots of people were looking up at it today. I guess we're not quite on thread, or rather I have started another branch.... hanging on by a twig, etc etc etc.

[pecksniff]

rch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi pecksniff...

>

> The maintenance/pruning budget is separate to the

> tree planting budget and therefore more difficult

> to access. Tree maintenance tends to be directed

> more towards larger trees lining the main roads...

> the schedule used to be rotated every three years,

> but I think it's pushed back to every five years

> now.

>

> I noted the Melbourne Grove cherry tree pruning

> issues to the tree officer a while ago after a

> resident spoke to me during one of the street

> events (possibly you?) but I'm not important

> enough to flag revenue expenses, so you did the

> right thing going to the councillor.

>

> On the other hand, I cringe when I walk down there

> now because they did a weird job on the trees -

> over cutting some of them but leaving snapped

> branches on others... so, I would have really

> liked to have known about the pruning so that I

> could have flagged certain issues in advance.

>

> FYI, I think the tree in front of the Pharmacy

> must have been removed as a result of this pruning

> exercise, as the pharmacist asked me to have it

> replaced (which is why it's on the replanting

> list). According to the pharmacist, the tree was

> only meant to be pruned, but the tree officer said

> that it was deemed to be too damaged by a lorry,

> so it was better to remove and replant.

>

> Also, FYI... you probably aren't aware that I have

> personally been maintaining those trees for

> years... I cut back the low branches blocking the

> pavement every year, but I can't reach the higher

> branches.

>

> I keep meaning to liaise better with the new

> councillors on the historical local tree schemes

> (and a couple of other things), so that we are all

> on the same page, but I've been buried in fighting

> serious Thames Water burst water main damage to my

> own property, which James McCash is being

> extremely supportive on (thanks, James!).

>

> Will try to update better slowly but surely...

Thanks Rch for your detailed response. Most appreciated.

[rch]

Hi pecksniff, you're welcome... I walk by there all the time so I care about these trees.

One more thing... bear in mind that the trees that were severely hacked back will severely alter the visual effect of the cherry avenue. It's possible that they may go into shock and not even bloom this spring, so I'll check in with Ernst and the councillor in the New Year to ascertain what will happen in the longterm.

R

[rch]

Hi PeckhamRose,

I couldn't see any photo, so I won't be able to tell until I can hike over there from East Dulwich. It sounds like the tree was "pollarded", which is usually only done for structural/health and safety reasons or else for long term maintenance issues. It's possible that the other trees around it will also be done in the New Year, but it's hard to tell until I can see it.

Robin

[Penguin68]

It sounds like the tree was "pollarded", which is usually only done for structural/health and safety reasons or else for long term maintenance issues.

Pollarding (like any crown reduction) is also used to constrain root growth - roots grow as long as a tree is high, roughly - so is a good strategy in urban street environments where you don't want roots being too intrusive or damaging, as well as avoiding growth of large boughs which can be intrusive and may be vulnerable to high winds, often exacerbated in built up areas by a wind tunnel effect.

[PeckhamRose]

rch sorry, always doing that! This one.

[Penguin68]

That looks as if it has been pollarded, probably to remove the danger of limbs being brought down in storms. It will be much safer now, and less likely to cause damage to other trees or itself. Mature trees can become very vulnerable to storm damage.

[PeckhamRose]

Thank you. Looks very odd since all the others around it are untouched. But thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[rch]

Ah, thanks, I can see it now!

As Penguin says, I'm guessing that it was probably pollarded to avoid wind and storm damage (which is one of the health and safety issues I alluded to above). From memory, a lot of the trees have been blown over/down on Peckham Rye during storms in the past, so this would be a way of protecting the older trees and anything underneath.

If you look at the tree to the right in the photo, you can tell that that one has been pollarded in the past as the shape of the arms is different and you can see where the little branches have shot out of each of the pollarded arms. So I'm guessing that the trees are done in an organised sequence over the years so that the park doesn't look too barren if several were done at the same time.

Will try to run this by Ernst eventually as well. It would be good if this sort of thing was on the Southwark website, as residents are very interested in trees!

[alex_b]

rch - thanks for all of the information in this thread. One thing that Southwark don?t seem very hot on is dealing with water sprouts. With the stress all of the trees were under this summer it seems to be a real issue. They?re obviously unsightly but also because they?re bushy growth from the ground they block pavements much more quickly than a lack of pruning at branch level. Is it something you could ask the tree officers about?

[rch]

Hi Alex... I'm used to referring to water sprouts as basal shoots, so apologies. Yes, the council doesn't tend to allocate budget on cutting back basal shoots unless they are doing overall tree maintenance nearby or if it's a main road.

There was originally a plan to train up volunteer residents as "tree wardens" to water and cut back low level sprouts and branches on their local trees, but even that scheme ran out of funding.

A former tree officer gave me the proper equipment and trained me to do the basic low-level pruning, which I do on both sides of Melbourne Grove (see above reference) and other side roads near my house. Residents in other areas are expressing interest in doing this as well, so we may try to create an informal group in the area to do this in liaison with the tree officer (although I think the council may be wary due to health and safety responsibility issues). If the shoots get so bad that I can't deal with them then I whinge at the tree officer to put a location on his maintenance list, but it can take time.

Another way of dealing with this has to review various species that are being planted in the streets, as some trees genuinely don't like being street trees in this urban climate... for instance, planting native trees such as Hawthorns in the past ten years have created so many problems with shoots on the pavements, that we tend to avoid planting them now. There was also an experiment with a variety of pear trees, but they went shoot-mad as well and are now avoided.

Let me know if you have any specific locations with problems... or, if I get organised, maybe we can start a planting/maintenance tree thread on the forum which I can direct Ernst to?

[rch]

Cella, I got your PM and managed to walk round to your road and spoke to a neighbour by chance. As your road is lined with Kanzan cherries, I think the smaller Sunset Boulevard cherry experiment might work well in some of the gaps, but this would probably require residents to unite and submit a CGS funding bid and work with cllrs and the tree officer.

I'll PM you back to explain better...

[cella]

Thanks so much -that's what I was hoping.

[alex_b]

Robin thanks for the information. Please let me know if you get an informal group started, I?d be happy to do some pruning on Adys and Nutbrook.