Dobson and Norris found guilty - 'bout time

[KidKruger]

Gary Dobson and David Norris have been found guilty of Stephen Lawrence's murder so I hear! They will be sentenced on Wed apparently.

Finally!

Even coming at the end of 2012 that would have been some of the best news this year. ?I hope the sentence reflects their lying and overdue nature of their incarceration. ?Next the Acourts and Knight ?

That would be a fine icing on the cake.

[Otta]

Next the Acourts and Knight ?

That would be wonderful, but there is nothing happening on that front just yet. The case is still open, but "on hold".

Maybe Dobson or Norris will grass them up, now they have nothing to lose...

Fucking scum!

[PaulK]

Here we go ..

[Otta]

Here we go, what Paul?

[ratty]

A pleasing piece of news, but do not expect Norris to grass. Dobson perhaps but sadly, they will have friends on the inside. Of course they will have plenty of enemies too, but Norris' old man is a big face apparently.

Would love to see those Acourt scum get theirs to be honest.

[alice]

such brilliant news - i had thought the judge was preparing us for a not guilty verdict with some of his comments - sentencing tomorrow at 11.30

[Loz]

Really thought it would not happen from reading the newspaper articles. Sounded like the defence was casting a lot of doubt on the evidence storage. But, seems the Met pulled it around. Now for the other two...

sadly, they will have friends on the inside

If they don't then hopefully they will have lots and lots of time in there to make some.

[KidKruger]

PaulK: "Here we go .."

Yep here they go condemning racist swine for the, er, racist swine that they are.

There's been a LOT of disappointment amongst decent folks over the lack of convictions / failed trial a few years ago. This has led to resentment and suspicion of the legal system. Finally technical advances mean at least two of the five will go down. There's relief and satisfaction that men who blatantly murdered a guy and got away with lies are finally going to prison. My relief and satisfaction is increased many fold each time I sit next to a racist dick head on a bus or hear one in a bar.

[HAL9000]

Remember the Jill Dando murder? Barry George's conviction was overturned on Appeal grounds that the prosecution's forensic evidence was contaminated.

George's Appeal ruling and today's convictions are inconsistent. Expect to see Norris and Dobson Appealing their convictions in due course.

[DulwichDeviant]

DELETED

[alice]

Hal - don't try and spoil a good news day - there's little enough of it at the moment anyhow how flawed is your logic: one conviction gets overturned therefore this one will too? was that it?

[womanofdulwich]

Ironic that an Indian student in Salford has allegedly been shot dead by someone who wants to call themselves phycho, and that may be a racist murder too. Interesting to see how quickly case is tried in court.

[DJKillaQueen]

I think Hal is right in that they will appeal if given the permission to do so, but new evidence casting doubt on their convictions would have to come to light first. The crucial difference between the Barry George case and this one though is that the prosecution could prove that the speck of blood found on clothing was fresh at the time of impact and that it could only have come from the crime scene itself...making contamination highly unlikely. I don't know the ins and outs of how a forensic scientist goes about proving that but that is not something that could have been said beyond doubt about the speck of gunpowder found on Barry Gearge's clothing for example.

The other thing is that they will be sentenced according to the rules in the year of the murder. Both men were juveniles at the time and will be sentenced as juveniles. I fully expect controversy when the sentences are passed. They won't be getting any 25 year life sentences.

[Santerme]

This was a new trial, not a retrial....why would they not be sentenced as adults?

I fully expect them to receive the mandatory life sentence, it is up to the judge to determine the minimum tariff.

I doubt they will be treated leniently on parole attempts either.

[HAL9000]

Fresh Evidence for an Appeal is only one expert's contradictory opinion away.

Regarding the bloodstain, I don't think the prosecution proved, in a scientific sense, anything of the sort. Rather, it seems to me that no defence experts were retained to experimentally confirm or refute the opinions of the prosecution's experts.

In any event, the Law Commission's recent proposals on wrongful convictions and acquittals based on flawed expert evidence should figure prominently in any forthcoming Appeals.

The failure to prosecute the original suspects at the time remains the real scandal that has never been adequately addressed, in my view.

ETA: For those interested:-

The Consultation Paper: The Admissibility of Expert Evidence in Criminal Proceedings in England and Wales

The Law Commission's Proposals: Expert Evidence In Criminal Proceedings In England And Wales

[KidKruger]

Personally I'll be disappointed if these guys get less than 20 years.

The old lady of one of them should also go down for her 'alibi'.

Whole mess is sickening for many reasons.

[DJKillaQueen]

The news has been reporting all day that they will be sentenced as juveniles Santerne, because they can only be sentenced according to guidelines for their ages at the time of the murder.

[HAL9000]

Dobson and Norris were juveniles at the time of the offence and can only be sentenced on that basis.

[Santerme]

Let's wait and see..........

I suspect we will see some sleight of hand, but if not the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 comes into play and that states:

"Where a person convicted of murder or any other offence the sentence for which is fixed by law as life imprisonment appears to the court to have been aged under 18 at the time the offence was committed, the court shall (notwithstanding anything in this or any other Act) sentence him to be detained during Her Majesty?s pleasure."

That can be as long as the powers that be want it to be......

[DJKillaQueen]

Except that act didn't exist in 1993 and so can't be used for any crimes prior to 2000. Today leading Police experts and legal experts (including Michael Mansfield) have all pointed out that they can only be sentenced according to the law at the time. I think they perhaps know what they are talking about.

[KidKruger]

Then that law should have been changed as well as the double jeopardy legislation.

[trizza]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Then that law should have been changed as well as

> the double jeopardy legislation.

What a silly comment. New law is generally not retrospective for a very good reason. We govern our actions by reference to the law applicable at the time the offence is committed and we depart from this principle at our peril. The law on double jeopardy is different.

[Otta]

BBC News reckons about 12 years each.

Personally I think it's bullshit. They may have been 16/17 at the time, but they've been guilty and avoided justice as adults, and should be punished for that. Shame they can't bring some new charge against them for that.

[KidKruger]

Sounds great - we allow Dobson and Norris to be sent off for a handful of years for a heinous crime and when people are disgusted at the apparent leniency we can tell them "well that's the way the machine works".

Sentencing them as teenagers is not appropriate. They had the chance to be sentenced as teenagers but chose against it didn't they ? They lied and obstructed out of choice. Now I believe they should face sentencing as adults, which is what they are.

[taper]

12 years is the minimum tariff, but I think the Judge has discretion to go higher. I gather from the news that he can't bring race as an aggravating factor into his consideration because the law at the time didn't allow thiasinine the way it does now.