Sleep

[sophiechristophy]

Ruth - why does it make you feel upset to have the logic and benefit of leaving a baby to cry for long periods of time challenged? Surely it is more upsetting to consider the crying baby? I understand sleep deprivation is totally hideous (I've been there), and a crying baby is extremely upsetting for mothers and fathers, but that doesn't take away from the experience that the baby is having also.

[Saffron]

Ah, Ruth, I was just about to write something similar re offering constructive advice! I'm going to hazzard a guess that no one really meant to upset anyone else, least of all the OP, but sleep (or lack thereof!) is a very emotive issue, no?

I'm not a fan of controlled crying or cry-it-out methods, but I do know that they work for some people. I think everyone would agree these methods are far from ideal. We'd all love our babes to fall peacefully asleep with a smile on their little faces after just one round of kiss and cuddle night-night, and to stay that way all night. That's simply not a reality for many babies and even older children too. Sometimes parents need to explore a lot of different sleep solutions, and for some people this will include cc styled solutions.

Before you use cc or cio methods you should really know what they are. CIO was the old method formerly advocated for getting Baby to sleep by putting her down and not going back AT ALL (unless Baby got into serious difficulty, ie vomitting). Dr Christopher Green designed CC as similar but better method. CC involves going in to comfort Baby at specific intervals of increasing time, and soothing Baby a little, and leaving the room while Baby is still awake. This method is very specific and was tested on infants as young as 6 mo. At 6 months old, it was concluded that parents would need to follow a rigorous program of CC for about 2 weeks before they could expect results. And this method was not to be used with children that are ill in any way.

However, Dr Christopher Green himself now admits that his methods may not nec best for Baby, and that we should be more patient with Baby and ourselves. http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?29,747477,749965#msg-749965

Indeed as was mentioned above, newer research has confirmed that prolonged bouts of Baby crying alone do lead to high levels of cortisol in Baby, which is undesireable for many reasons, not least of which is that this supresses immunity leading to more illness and less rest for Baby.

However, if you've ruled out illness (and I can't stress strongly enough how much I think you need to see a sympathetic GP!!), and explored all the other options (Fuschia, littleEDfamily, and alieh have given some good suggestions above), then rahrahrah I would suggest that you read Dr Christopher Green's method, b/c going in to comfort Baby 'every 30 min or so' isn't really cc or cio. (I'm not a huge fan, but do have his book to lend if you want.) I would also suggest that you hire an experienced night nanny and/or a child sleep consultant b/c not following sleep training methodology to the letter can make sleep worse. I know that others on this Forum have used such services, so perhaps you can get some recommendations here?

Best of luck. xx

[Ruth_Baldock]

It doesn't upset me to have the benefits/opposite pointed out, I meant more I find it upsetting that the OP, as a desperate and tired Mum, has come to the forum for advice, but is getting judged! Come on now, seriously not what she needs, or asked for. I don't think anyone goes into parenthood thinking 'I know! I'll just use controlled crying!'. It's an act of total bewliderment and desperation, really. A last resort if you will, and I'm sure the OP feels cruddy enough as it is.

I'm not saying whether I advocate sleep training or not, because that is beside the point here.

"

I'm not a fan of controlled crying or cry-it-out methods, but I do know that they work for some people. I think everyone would agree these methods are far from ideal. We'd all love our babes to fall peacefully asleep with a smile on their little faces after just one round of kiss and cuddle night-night, and to stay that way all night. That's simply not a reality for many babies and even older children too. Sometimes parents need to explore a lot of different sleep solutions, and for some people this will include cc styled solutions. "

Really agfree with you here, Saffron. It's a very emotive subject, one close to my heart, we're currently going through absolute trauma with our 2 y/o in the early hours. HO HUM.

Apologies for typos, NAK.

[MichelleT]

It's funny you should say that Ruth but before I had a baby that's exactly what I thought. I even remember saying to a colleague why don't you just leave her to cry...

[MichelleT]

Rahrah, does your baby nap well? Mapping seems to be key to good sleep. Also if you would like to borrow my copy of no cry sleep solution let me know. Will be in ed tomorrow afternoon so could drop it off. And good luck! This too shall pass xx

[Ruth_Baldock]

I agree with Michelle- sleep begets sleep. A good nap normally means better sleep for us here- does Mini Rah have a good nap routine? I'm not one for madly strict schdules at all, but at 7mo, Cheeky S wasn't napping at all, not one closed eye in the day, except for if we went out in the pram and then he was zonked out from pure exhaustion; and I was suprised he wasn't sleeping well at night. Ha! Oh, if only I knew. When he started going down for two decent naps in the day, he sleep improved VASTLY.

[mrs f]

"We'd all love our babes to fall peacefully asleep with a smile on their little faces after just one round of kiss and cuddle night-night, and to stay that way all night"

this is what my baby does! not when ill or teething etc but generally he now NEVER cries going to bed and if he stirrs then he sometimes chats a little and goes back to sleep. He has not come to any harm from our CIO methods and it took one night to work....

It certainally wasn't easy to do but I'm pleased we did it.

whatever you do be comfortable in it and don't judge others for their choices.

[mrs f]

sorry my point there was that I'd argue that actually my baby has/will cry less than a baby who doesn't go through some type of sleep 'training' (for want of a better word)

[MichelleT]

Hi Mrs F, that's fine for your baby but sleep training isn't working for the OP so what would you suggest?

[poppy]

Sorry for going slightly off the topic again but just to return very quickly to the earlier discussion about sleep training methods that involve crying. I think what is often forgotten in these debates is the potential negative consequences of NOT doing sleep training. Exhaustion, which clearly results from long term sleep deprivation, is a major contributor to postnatal depression and the evidence that a depressed mother can have quite a marked negative impact on a baby is much better established than the potential negative consequences of controlled crying, the evidence for which is actually not very established and pretty mixed. So I don't think any parent who is at their wits' end, out of their minds with exhaustion, tearful and depressed, should be made to feel guilty about using sleep training as a way to address their own sanity as well as teaching their baby to settle themselves - it might actually be the best thing for both the parent and the baby. That said, sleep training should be done in a consistent and planned way to minimise undue distress.

Sorry for slight deviation - to return to the original post, Rahrahrah, have you considered consulting a sleep nanny or asking your HV for a referral to the sleep clinic? I would second earlier suggestions to think about hunger and other causes of not sleeping as well. 7m is still very little and to do CC you would need to be absolutely sure that there were no other reasons for being wakeful, including having eliminated all night-time feeds first. And at 7m that might be quite tricky. It will get better though!

[MichelleT]

Can I just say again No Cry Sleep Solution! Its not a case of sleep deprivation OR leaving baby to cry. There are other ways to gently help your baby to learn to sleep. I got home tonight, Pickle had his bath, bottle, teeth two stories one on my lap one in his cot lullaby good night and off went the light. Twenty minutes later he was asleep without a squeak. A lot of this is down to him being ready developmentally, but also I followed lots of Pantley's tips about consistent evening routine, bedtimes, a calming hour before bed so the baby relaxes and winds down gradually. I've never ever left him to cry in his cot.

[civilservant]

I've disagreed with some co-posters about 'natural' birth, but - as an elderly primigravida desk-jockey who had to be back at work full-time when the bub was 7 months old - the only way that we managed to get all of us a decent night's sleep was by co-sleeping.

That's the selfish reason. From the bub's point of view, I'm sure that she will thank me in later life for not subjecting her to the ordeal of controlled crying. I agree with Fuschia, Michelle T, littleEDf et al - it is not kind to leave a baby crying for extended periods of time. It will indeed pass - soon enough they'll want their own room, and their own life, and one will be left to enjoy an empty nest on one's own... :(

[Ruth_Baldock]

Okay, fair enough, but what if you've tried all gentle approaches (co-sleeping, NCSS etc) and still no sleep? This was a dilemma I faced when I went back to work at 10mo PP. I was so exhausted that I reguarly fell asleep on the bus, waking up in Euston when the bus terminated, 30mins after I was meant to start work as I'd fallen asleep! My boss was sympathetic for the first three days but I would probably have lost my job had it continued.

So what is one meant to do when the baby has no medical reasons for not sleeping and all preferred methods just do. Not. Work? I'm not being sarky, I'm genuinely interested to see what people's take is on this.

[civilservant]

so Ruth B, you presumably solved the problem, as you appear to have managed to carry on working

what did you do?

for us, the solution was co-sleeping - but I had to learn to relax and love it, as all the baby books implied that it was unnatural (and I also had to convince my SO that it was 'normal')

but of course I also had my experience of 'third world' child rearing practices to prove that such alternatives could work

[Beany]

Rahrahrah - how awful for you and bubs. Not a lot of advice really, but sympathy and assurance that you'll find a way to cope and it will pass. There's loads of great tips here - you must be so tired that you don't know what to try next - so ruling out medical reasons for the waking with the GP is an obvious one which I'm sure you've ticked off the list, so sleep specialist/ sleep nanny who uses an approach you're comfortable with might be another good option. At that age my daughter responded to dreamfeed and routine before bed (the usual). I think we were also still wrapping her bottom half at that stage and tucking her under a tight sheet for security.

To add to the general discussion which has developed - I echo others in emphasising how important it is to remember each bub and mum is different, and there is not one 'right' approach (Mini beany would laugh and joke for hours if brought into our bed - until it turned to hysteria and distress because she was so overtired!!). I think everyone agrees that CIO/ controlled crying isn't ideal for either mum or bubs but, as Poppy says, I do also wonder whether we should bear in mind the mum's health/ ability to cope with sleep deprivation and the impact of this on the baby. It's hard to predict how all of these might really effect you as a parent, even though we're told how difficult it is!

Good luck!

[ClaireClaire]

Hi rahrahrah,

It sounds like you're using some variation of the controlled crying technique, and I thought I'd share the version that's worked for me.

The version I use comes from Richard Ferber's book called "Solve your child's sleep problems", which I cannot recommend highly enough.

Basically, the first step is to identify what's disturbing your child's sleep. In my case (and it's very common in babies the age you mention), it was a sleep association problem. For example, the baby might need her dummy to get back to sleep, so you have umpteen wakings between 11pm and 5am where you have to go and put the dummy back in. Or baby needs to be rocked to sleep, or cuddled, or nursed, or have her tummy patted, or whatever. So the first step is to identify if you have a sleep association problem, and decide whether you are in a position to try to break that sleep association. (BTW If baby still needs night feeds, then obviously CC is not appropriate.)

Choose a time when you have a stretch of at least 3-4 days when you can concentrate on sleep training. So not when you're just about to take a trip or have a houseguest etc. Also, make sure to choose a time when baby is not ill or teething etc. If you start the training when you're concerned baby is ill or teething, you are likely to change your mind half-way through and not follow through with the procedure.

Your objective is to remove the thing that is causing the problem (e.g. dummy, rocking, etc), and LET BABY FALL ASLEEP without it. What you're really doing with the CC technique is standing back respectfully and allowing your baby to learn this new skill.

So, on the big night, you and hubby should both be there and both committed to the training. If you're not both committed yet, don't start, because you will probably just cave in and then end up feeling like "controlled crying doesn't work" -- whereas, done properly, it does work.

On the first night:

Put baby in her cot. Make sure to remove whatever sleep association you're trying to break E.g. put her down without the dummy, or without all the ritual rocking/patting/singing etc. Just put her down, say good night, and leave the room.

Baby will start crying.

Wait 1 minute, then go in and give her a pat. Don't pick her up, DO NOT under any circumstances reintroduce the association you are trying to break, i.e. the dummy/rocking/patting. Just reassure her briefly that you are there, you love her etc. Remember that your purpose there is to reassure her, NOT to stop her crying. She will probably start crying again as soon as you turn to leave: that is ok. Just leave the room anyway.

Next wait 3 mins before going in and repeating the brief reassurance.

Next wait 5 mins.

Next wait 10 mins.

Next wait 15 mins.

Continue to go in at 15 min intervals until she falls asleep.

It actually doesn't matter what intervals you choose, as long as they increase and then plateau. So in the example above, I've suggested 1 / 3 / 5/ 10 / 15 / 15 / 15; but you could also do: 1 / 2 / 3 / 5 / 10 / 10 / 10.

On the second night, increase the intervals slightly compared to whatever you've done previously.

So if you did 1 / 3 / 5 / 10 / 15 / 15 on the first night, you could do 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 20 / 20 on the second night. Again, whatever is manageable for you.

On the third night, if your child is still crying, increase the intervals again.

And so on. If you have diagnosed the sleep problem correctly, you should see a huge improvement certainly within a week, and more likely within just a few days.

There are a number of reasons why this technique works.

Firstly, it's manageable for the parent: not only do you reassure your child that you're still there, but you reassure yourself that your child is ok. The cold turkey method of "put child in cot and leave it there until it falls asleep" doesn't work because most parents, understandably, cannot follow through with that.

Secondly, by repeatedly going in and not changing your stance, you're providing important data to your child. You're teaching your child that yes, mummy is here and mummy is looking after you, but mummy is not going to take you out of the cot (or stroke your tummy or give you the dummy). With the cold turkey method, the child actually doesn't have that data, because the whole time, they're thinking: "Where's mummy?" So in that case they cry until they exhaust themselves. But with this technique, they cry until they realise that mummy's behaviour isn't going to change, and they may as well just go to sleep. It really is an active training technique.

We did this for the first time when our first child was 6m and her having a dummy at night had become a problem.

On the first night, she cried for 1.5 hours. (We had mentally prepared for 3-4 hours).

On the second night she cried for 45 mins.

On the third night she went straight to sleep without a murmur.

We've also done it numerous times with our second child. (We go through cycles of letting him sleep with us while he's sick, and then getting him back in his own bed after he's well again, so we've done CC with him numerous times, and I can assure you that each time it works like a charm!!)

Sorry for this long post but I thought it might help you rahrah, or if not you then some other poor person suffering from sleep deprivation and wondering about controlled crying!

GOOD LUCK and if you have any questions about CC then feel free to pm me

Claire

[Ruth_Baldock]

Civilservant; for about a fortnight, I slept on the sofa whilst my husband and son had our bed. By no means ideal (by this point, my son was no longer feeding at night- when he woke at night and I tried to feed him, he wasn't interested. In the end, I was distraught and exhausted and told my husband I genuinely fel like leaving just so I could sleep. Sounds melodramatic now but at the tome I was far from sane and rational. We ended up sleep training him, but ironically, he never cried. We always thought he'd scream and shout buy when we put him in his cot and left the room, he chatted to himself and moaned slightly for 45mins before going to sleep. I'd head him in the night, stirring and having a chat before resettling. It worked for us at the tome, and we did have a great sleeper. Not so much now, such is life...

[Saffron]

ClaireClaire Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The version I use comes from Richard Ferber's book

> called "Solve your child's sleep problems", which

> I cannot recommend highly enough.

>

Ferber is a variation on Dr Christopher's Greens original research, very similar to what Dr Green tested clinically. You describe it very well ClaireClaire. xx

We tried a similar variation (when I was a crazy person at my wit's end) and totally failed. Not b/c I couldn't follow the program, but b/c we noticed Little Saff developing HORRIBLE daytime associations with sleep, where she would burst in to unstoppable tears at any mention of night-night, or seeing anyone else yawning or putting teddies in bed. We decided this wasn't for us, and we went back to co-sleeping. We also used some of the techniques from the fade-type behavioural modification (from The Good Sleep Guide, I think?), and had a little better success with these, but it took a very long time.

Hope things get better for you soon, rahrahrah. xx

[civilservant]

thanks, Ruth - good to hear that you worked out what was best for all the family!

sleep deprivation IS torture

rahrahrah, hope you work out your solution soon too!