strike

[Chippy Minton]

You just go on Facebook and the East Dulwich Forum all day.

[DaveR]

"...or indeed miles from the centre of UK political opinion, if you factor in the whole of the UK rather than just 'people I regard as sound on these sort of issues'"

Supposition"

Whereas you have clearly polled extensively before deciding that, happily, you sit comfortably in the middle, with the majority.

Quote:

Politics is about choices,

Is it that simple? I thought politics was actually about finding the right pragmatic solution to the problems at hand? History has shown that politics and which version is implemented has enormous consequences. It's not just about "choice" surely?"

Which do you want, the pragmatic solution or the 'right' one? The argument here is not about whether reducing public sector pensions will 'work' because the desired end is a smaller tax bill to pay for them, and that will definitely flow from the proposed changes. The argument is about whether it is 'right' i.e. fair. That's a political argument, based on values, and in particular (as I've already said, but no harm in repeating) your view as to the right balance between collective and individual interests and responsibilities.

And, right on cue, d_c arrives with 'war on the public sector' and 'slash and burn politics', thereby proving that he has nothing to add to the debate beyond soundbites that are too crude and formulaic even for the trades unions who are actually going out on strike. Or Ed Milliband. Which is worse.

[Loz]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> You ought to come and work in the public sector Loz - it's amazing. We have chairs made of clouds

> and desks of gold. Free beer and sausages for all and as much holiday as you want.

No thanks. I worked with (note, not for) the PS for years. I know what it is like.

[david_carnell]

DaveR - I let the first bitchy comment slide but not again. I don't quite understand the venom aimed in my direction.

Do you honestly believe that these moves by Osborne are not an attempt to fatally undermine the public sector, its workers and its ethos? Do you really think these are simply pragmatic moves to help paydown the deficit?

[Loz]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> Do you honestly believe that these moves by Osborne are not an attempt to fatally undermine

> the public sector, its workers and its ethos? Do you really think these are simply pragmatic moves

> to help paydown the deficit?

Labour believes in big government, Tories in small government. Yes, Osbourne is using the deficit as an excuse to cut down the footprint of the public sector, but I don't think it is to 'fatally undermine' it, just shrink it.

[Marmora Man]

D-C I think you view the world through a distorting lens. Because you adopt and old fashioned, socialist work, class war rhetoric you seem unable to believe others might adopt a more enlightened and objective approach to national problems.

The Conservative Party is of out to destroy the working class or the public sector.

Please get real. This is about affordability - not class war.

[Marmora Man]

But as you dispute my other point, can either you or MM provide examples of the small states in existence which show the benefits of that argument?

It is possible to argue the reverse tho'. The Eurozone can be seen as a reckless example of a big spending, bureaucratically overweening big state - and it certainly doesn't look like a success. My preferred alternative might, perhaps, be better?

[Undisputedtruth]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> D-C I think you view the world through a

> distorting lens. Because you adopt and old

> fashioned, socialist work, class war rhetoric you

> seem unable to believe others might adopt a more

> enlightened and objective approach to national

> problems.

>

> The Conservative Party is of out to destroy the

> working class or the public sector.

>

> Please get real. This is about affordability - not

> class war.

I thought the notion on whether public sections were affordable have already been addressed through the National Audit Office some year ago. They concluded that the pensions were affordable. The figures were not any different to those given in the Hutton report. I'm afraid Marmora Man most of your ideas/concepts are usually based on myths, poorly researched or out of date ideologies from the Thatcher era.

[Otta]

Having read this, without posting for a bit, I just feel that MM's views do appear ideological, To suggest that running a, pretty small, business model, could offer a workable model for running government seems like madness and nothing less to me.

DaveR, D_C and I are not beyond disagreement, but you do seem to be gunning for him specifically, which is poor form. A shame, as otherwise you are a good contributer.

I am no expert on any of this, as indeed are none of you. I am sad however, to be in the current position I am in, and see people's jobs torn to shreds, because literally management don't actually understand the roles people play.

[Huguenot]

Well since d_c wasn't averse to calling me a Berkshire Hunt earlier on the thread, I'm sure his skin is thick enough to take a bit of ideological disagreement.

The 10% cut in public sector workforce appears drastic, but is only reducing it to the levels it was in 2000. It wasn't as if the public sector was 'dead' at this point, so there's no justification for calling this a 'fatal' blow.

Whether it makes sense or not remains to be seen, dependent upon where thos cuts are applied. From what I have seen most public sector grunts would be overjoyed to see a drop in admin and lots of 'useless managers' getting the boot?

If public sector workers want to retire earlier than everyone else on large pensions they should have that choice by increasing their voluntary contributions, not by fleecing private sector workers in SMEs to leave them without enough money to pay for their own...

I believe in central government services including welfare, education, health, security and infrastructure. The question is how far this goes.

I don't believe the privatisation of national industry has been a failure, I believe it has been a raging success in the most part, with a few silly ones like the railways along the way.

So me question is what peripheral services could also be delivered outside the public sector.

[DaveR]

"I am no expert on any of this, as indeed are none of you."

" I am sad however, to be in the current position I am in, and see people's jobs torn to shreds, because literally management don't actually understand the roles people play."

Is that your expert opinion? Or just more emotive nonsense?

I've worked in the public sector and the private sector as an employee, and on a self-employed basis for public and private clients. I've also been a consumer of public sector services for many years and in many capacities - patient, parent, driver, taxpayer etc., and similarly of private sector services. I have a passing knowledge of economics, and (God help me) a more thorough understanding of modern organisational management theory than I would wish. I also have certain core beliefs which are largely libertarian i.e. I think people are capable of making the best decisions for themselves far more often than prevailing wisdom might suggest. None of that makes me an expert, and in fact it probably makes me no better informed than many who post on here, but it does allow me to say "b*llocks" when people spout drivel like "declaring war on the public sector". Save it for the soapbox - it makes zero contribution to any serious debate.

Similarly, to talk about "the public sector, its workers and its ethos" in such simplistic terms reveals an idealism and/or simplicity of thought that, whilst slightly touching in its naivety, is similarly unworthy of serious consideration.

[david_carnell]

Do we have to list our credentials now before being posts are deemed worthy of consideration? I'm not indulging anyone in some pointless d*ck waving contest.

I'm of the opinion that this strike is more than just about pensions, but since trade union laws prevent industrial action based on generic political issues and restrict them to pay and conditions, the opportunity to "stick one" to the government has been welcomed by many within the public sector. The issue of pensions is an important one since for decades, if not right now, the sacrifice in pay that came with working for the state was compensated by a decent pension. Old habits die hard. Redundancies and pay freezes have already made many agitated.

As UDT points out, the NAO found that the pension schemes were on target and affordable. But we aren't naive. I'm aware that people are living longer. And I'm happy to see some discretion used in adapting the pensions model accordingly. However, in the middle of a recession, with a 16% cut in pay over 5 years, asking workers to pay significantly more into their pension pot, to work longer AND to get less when they retire is positively insulting.

It is worth noting that it is far from the "usual suspects" appearing on the picket lines today. Whilst I view the likes of PCS with suspicion given their preference for bully boy tactics over negotiation, today we see normally passive, considered unions like my own, Prospect, the FDA and the Association of Head Teachers all walking out. These are reasonable people with reasonable cause.

When looking for an easy target of spending cuts, this government has turned its sights on reducing numbers, pay and conditions of the public sector workforce. That is beyond dispute. What is controversial is whether this is a valid economic tactic or merely disguised ideological opposition to state run services.

It's not difficult to realise that these attacks do little to damage Conservative polling. Most public sector workers are Labour and LibDem voters. The hardest hit regions will be those northern cities most reliant on public sector jobs - again, Labour voting.

And yet the Chancellor's actions are causing him, far from reducing the deficit, to borrow more to pay benefits to the hundreds of thousands out of work and the associated reduced spending power that is contributing to a steep decline in the retail and service sector. Not a wise move just before Xmas.

Opinion polls seem to show the public are not yet blaming this government for the current state of the economy or their own personal misfortune. The key word is yet.

[DaveR]

d_c, I specifically said that it doesn't make me an expert - just expert enough to call you out on cheap sloganeering.

So your position is:

- the strike is not just about pay and conditions but you have to pretend that it is

- you recognise that changes to pension arrangements are needed, but not now, because we're in a recession

- the strikers position is reasonable because it involves reasonable people

- you believe that the governments plans for the public sector are (i) ideologically motivated rather than economically driven and (ii) not likely to be effective in economic policy terms.

It's helpful when you set it out clearly because then we can ignore the first three points, which are essentially irrelevant to the issues, and just deal with the last one (in two parts). On the first, I would say that it is one of those happy coincidences where ideology and necessity are in harmony. As has already been pointed out, Conservative ideology is inherently more likely to favour small government, and all they are doing is reversing in some part the huge expansion in the public sector 'payroll vote' that successive Labour governments presided over. All those public sector jobs in Northern cities didn't get there by accident, you know. On the second part, I disagree. The reason why borrowing will still be rising has b*gger all to do with public sector job cuts and a whole load to do with problems in the Eurozone, the UK's biggest export market, and the associated and ongoing credit squeeze. I notice that Ed Balls appeared to suggest that future borrowing should be both higher and lower - nice and clear. You appear to be saying the same.

[Otta]

ideologically motivated rather than economically driven

Whatever your take on the strike, and the cuts, does anyone really believe that the Tories wouldn't have liked to do such things anyway? The current economic situation has made it very easy for them to justify what they basically believe in.

Just to change the subject a bit, the thing I've noticed from talking to people at work recently, is that the biggest fear is ob losses. Public sector workers have traditionally had big time job security. I admit to joking with mates in the pub, that I'm "unsackable" (this was in the past, wehn I was a permanent member of staff).

These days however, job security doesn't seem to exist, and people are being gotten rid of, not for doing anything wrong, but because of constant restructuring.

"Restructuring" is basically a nicer way of saying "get rid of a few people, and any posts that are vacant and waiting to be filled".

[Marmora Man]

Don't know how it is in London - but in Leeds where I'm working on an assignment at present the picket line outside the adjacent NHS Trust had two people at 8.00am this morning and none at 1.00pm. A few discarded posters markesthe spot but across the city it all seems rather apathetic, tho' maybe somewhere there's a big crowd shouting the odds.

[Otta]

I saw no picket lines in Newham today, although I wasn't really looking very hard to be honest.

Given the size of the strike, you'd have thought there would have been a massive rally, but I've not heard of anything.

[Otta]

The strike is having the following effects:

Department for Education figures suggest more than half (58%) of England's 21,700 state schools are closed, with another 13% partly shut

In Scotland, 33 of the 2,700 council-run schools are believed to be open, says local authority body Cosla, while in Wales 80% of schools are shut. In Northern Ireland, just over half of about 1,200 schools are closed

Plane arrivals and take-offs at Britain's two biggest airports - Heathrow and Gatwick - are said to be largely unaffected with only a few cancellations of in-bound transatlantic flights to Heathrow

In Northern Ireland, no bus or train services are operating

Unions estimate about 300,000 public sector workers are on strike in Scotland while 170,000 workers in Wales are taking action

NHS managers say about 6,000 out of just over 30,000 routine operations have been cancelled across the UK as well as tens of thousands of appointments

BBC News Channel's chief political correspondent Norman Smith tweeted: "(Health Secretary) Andrew Lansley says patients who have ops cancelled today will still be seen within 18-week limit."

South East Coast Ambulance Service says it is now only responding to "life-threatening emergencies"; London Ambulance Service tells BBC London it is "struggling", is unable to respond to many 999 calls and prioritising life-threatening cases

Union leaders say although court staff are taking action, the trial of two men accused of killing of teenager Stephen Lawrence will not be disrupted

Just 18 job centres out of more than 900 across the UK have closed, according to the cabinet office

Demonstrations are taking place across the UK, with thousands joining marches in places including Cardiff, Birmingham, Leeds, Exeter, York, Gateshead and Aberdeen

Scotland Yard said 37 protesters detained in east London at about 10:00 GMT had now been arrested on suspicion of breach of the peace

Four arrests were made ahead of a march now under way in London - two for assaulting an officer and two for possession of a weapon

BBC political correspondent Mike Sergeant tweeted: "Strong police presence + metal cordons in Trafalgar Square. Interesting new tactic. To stop any attempt to occupy?"

David Cameron has described the strike as "a damp squib", which is exactly the kind of dismissive, and arrogant language you'd expect from him.

[StraferJack]

thing is Otta , there is nothing inherently "wrong" about a company or a government reviewing the supply against the demand, and either hiring or resizing accordingly

And fearing job losses is here to stay for the forseeable for everyone - no getting away from that either, regardless of who is in power

But in an ideal world, has the expansion of the civil service been a good thing or not over the last 10-15 years (leaving cost aside for a moment)

Clearly Dave doesn't think so but I'm pretty sure hospitals and schools all saw massive improvements. frontline services (even in Northern towns!) similarly. Are these jobs the private sector would want to do? Or could do profitably? My argument is that that answer is "no".

(you can provide an excellent medical service as a private company if you are able to manage your customers - once you throw teh doors open to everyone it's a different game)

So I'm all for the public sector growing in theory and where necessary - and I don't see that as a "war on private sector" as MM bizaarley claimed

But here we are with this deficit to deal with - does that make the case for pension negotiations and job cuts? Even I would concede that has to be on the table and managed appropriately, and unions need to make concessions

the problem however is that if you believe the other party in those discussions is already of the persuasion that, regardless of economic climate, your very existence is A Bad Thing then it's a bit harder to accept proposals at face value

[Otta]

thing is keef, there is nothing inherently "wrong" about a company or a government reviewing the supply against the demand, and either hiring or resizing accordingly

I agree, my current role has opened my eyes in a lot of ways to the harsh realities of budgets.

I do think there are good and bad ways of doing things though.

Oh, and why have people started calling me Keef all of a sudden?

[StraferJack]

oops - slip of the tongue there. Changed

[ratty]

Cannot see how it is apathetic if the strike is happening? Picket lines are pretty much a thing of the past since the law was passed limiting them so much. Sadly proper picketting like during the miners strike is a thing of the past now.

HOWEVER there was a big picket outside Lewisham College this morning (well as big as is legal)! They were getting many cheers and toots from the passing motorist. It has of course now disbanded so the participants can join wider organised union rallies and events across the capital!

Money speaks for Money,

The devil for his own,

Who comes to speak for the skin and the bone?

What a comfort for the widow, a light for the child...

There is Power in a Union!

I thank you!

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> oops - slip of the tongue there. Changed

No need to change it, my Identity is as obvious as Clark Kent's!

[Marmora Man]

and I don't see that as a "war on private sector" as MM bizaarley claimed

No I didn't! (this sounds like a pantomime). In response to D-C's bizarre claim that the Conservative Party was engaged in a "war on the public sector" my exact words were "I might have described G Brown's expansion of the public sector and tax hikes in much of the last decade as "war on the private sector" but I refrained".

[StraferJack]

oh come come - that's just semantics

You didn't claim it because you "might have" but "refrained". But by even mentioning it in the first place the clear suggestion is that isn't a million miles from what you think surely?

But that is only my interpretation and I'm happy to be corrected

[david_carnell]

Hyperbolic perhaps but not bizarre.