strike

[david_carnell]

How are the Scandanavian economies performing at the moment? You know, the ones that have "increased taxation to pay for early retirement, inflated pensions, longers holidays, fewer working hours"....

Oh yeah. They're fine. Those crazy Keynesians.

[StraferJack]

"Sorry - don't understand the "you can't think out the public sector" sentence!"

sorry jeremy - that should have read "thin out" - as it cut out dead wood. On teh one hand we want a leaner, more productive civil-service and on the other we want people to kick about after they have been usefully productive? It seems a contradiction

[Huguenot]

We've already discussed how inappropriate comparisons between countries with populations of less than 10 million are with the UK and its post industrial population of over 60m.

You like to claim that these countries are successful because they have high taxation and left wing social programs.

In fact they're successful in spite of these policies.

[david_carnell]

I would suggest that your assertion that Britain can be successful by removing worker security, decent pensions and pay rises would be an equal falsehood.

[Jeremy]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> On teh one hand we want a

> leaner, more productive civil-service and on the

> other we want people to kick about after they have

> been usefully productive? It seems a contradiction

Not sure it's really a contradiction - hire less people into the public sector, but keep those people working for longer. If teachers don't want to teach into their late 60s (I can accept that there may be physical demands), I'm sure there is other work to do in the education department.

I don't want to work until my old age either, but realistically most of us will probably have no choice.

[Loz]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> sorry jeremy - that should have read "thin out" - as it cut out dead wood. On teh one hand we want a

> leaner, more productive civil-service and on the other we want people to kick about after they have

> been usefully productive? It seems a contradiction

Not at all. They don't have to stay in the PS. Some of these unneeded people in the public sector may be useful enough to get a job in the private sector. ::o

[Undisputedtruth]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We've already discussed how inappropriate

> comparisons between countries with populations of

> less than 10 million are with the UK and its post

> industrial population of over 60m.

>

> You like to claim that these countries are

> successful because they have high taxation and

> left wing social programs.

>

> In fact they're successful in spite of these

> policies.

Hold on Hugo, didn't the government copied the Sweden's free schools model? Didn't Gordon Brown copied how the Swede's dealt with their own banking crisis by purchasing the toxic banks and later selling them for a profit?

Amazingly, Marmora Man and yourself are quick enough to point out by using the Greece financial model as justification for attacks on the UK's public sector. Greece a population of 11m and is nowhere as developed as other European countries. It goes to show how much nonsense Hugo is talking.

There is no evidence to suggest Sweden have high taxation policies. For a start their first ?35k of earnings are tax free. Now compare that to Britain where lowly paid workers are taxed more than their Swedish counterparts?

[Huguenot]

"I would suggest that your assertion that Britain can be successful by removing worker security, decent pensions and pay rises would be an equal falsehood."

I have made no such assertion. Have you taken to fabricate arguments to win now?

[Huguenot]

UDT, the 'free schools' model is effectively subsidised private education - is it recommended as a solution to the pensions crisis? It may help if the teachers don't receive state pension, is this your recommendation?

No toxic debt has yet been sold for a profit in the UK, I look forward to the day that it is. Is it also suggested as an answer to the pensions crisis?

I have never used the Greek financial model as justification for an attack on the public sector. In fact I have not attacked the public sector since I support it. I have only criticised the ridiculousness of the current pensions dispute.

At 46.4%, Swedish tax as a proportion of GDP is the second highest in the world (beaten only by Denmark). At 12% points higher than the OECD average, that's the definition of a high taxation policy.

Any other rubbish to clarify?

[Jeremy]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> There is no evidence to suggest Sweden have high taxation policies.

You've got to be kidding.

[david_carnell]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "I would suggest that your assertion that Britain

> can be successful by removing worker security,

> decent pensions and pay rises would be an equal

> falsehood."

>

> I have made no such assertion. Have you taken to

> fabricate arguments to win now?

You've repeatedly suggested that Britain needs to make such sacrifices to ensure economic stability/success, no? I'm not attempting to fabricate anything. Don't be so petty.

[Loz]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is no evidence to suggest Sweden have high taxation policies. For a start their first ?35k of

> earnings are tax free. Now compare that to Britain where lowly paid workers are taxed more than their

> Swedish counterparts?

Nice try UDT. From the Swedish Taxation Department - Skatteverket - themselves...

The tax on income from employment comprises municipal tax and state tax. Most people only pay municipal tax. The amount varies (approx. 29?35 per cent tax) depending on where in the country you live. State tax is paid by those with an income of more than approx. SEK 340 000 in the income year 2008 ? approx. SEK 380 000 in income year 2009 ? (20?25 per cent tax). In addition, everyone pays a general pension contribution (7 per cent).

So, yes, 'state tax' starts at about ?35K, but by then you have already been slugged 29-35% plus 7% for pensions.

Pretty high taxing in anyone's eyes.

[Undisputedtruth]

"An individual's income is divided into 3 categories: business income, employment income and capital income. The average municipal tax rate is approximately 31.56% and is levied on total taxable employment income less a personal allowance. A basic national income tax of 20% is levied on taxable income exceeding SEK 372,100 (for 2010). A higher national tax of 25% is levied on taxable income in excess of SEK 532,700 (for 2010). In total, a maximum rate of approximately 57.77% is levied on average. Business income is taxed at the same rate as employment income. Dividend and interest income are taxed at a flat rate of 30%." [sweden's Tax Rates]

There you go, Loz. The above article gives a lot more details about Sweden's taxation system. Also Municipal tax is just another form of Council Tax but based on the ability to pay and appears to take into account each person's personal allowance. I stand by my original statement Loz.

[Chippy Minton]

Anyone one else see the Dulwich College tutors out supporting the strike yesterday? Another great example of the strength of feeling amongst people never normally associated with a hotbed of Bolshevism!

[new mother]

Basic question - what do all these people do? Isn't t desperately dull doing nothing all day or wasting the country's productivity? It strikes me as 40 years of slow torture. But then I suppose the pension makes up for it.

The ones that really get to me are the private school teachers who came out on the grounds they are members of a ps union.

[Chippy Minton]

NM - are you Clarkson's wife?

For clarity - private school teachers, or anyone else for that matter, can't simply go on strike because they are a member of a public sector union. There were millions of members of the striking unions that couldn't, and didn't, take any legal strike action yesterday.

[david_carnell]

What do we do?

What do you do?

Sort of the same, only for the government.....

[LuLu Too]

What do we do?

We deliver your babies.

We educate your children.

We treat your illnesses.

We deal with your emergencies and save your life.

We deal with your non emergencies even when your life doesn't need saving but you think it does.

We'll hold your hand when you're in crisis.

We'll protect you from yourself when you can't.

We fight your fires.

We investigate your crimes and prosecute your criminals.

We safeguard the vulnerable.

We protect the needy.

We assist the less abled.

We feed & shelter the destitute.

We'll wipe your backside when you've lost the ability to do it yourself.

Hell, we'll even bury or cremate you when you're dead if no one else will...

[david_carnell]

But of course heaven forbid anyone should be made to pay for that......

Nice one Lulu Too.

[Chippy Minton]

They also provide a walk in service when you want your child to be seen by a doctor. Isn't that right NM?

[Loz]

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

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> "An individual's income is divided into 3 categories: business income, employment income and

> capital income. The average municipal tax rate is approximately 31.56% and is levied on total

> taxable employment income less a personal allowance. A basic national income tax of 20% is

> levied on taxable income exceeding SEK 372,100 (for 2010). A higher national tax of 25% is levied

> on taxable income in excess of SEK 532,700 (for 2010). In total, a maximum rate of approximately

> 57.77% is levied on average. Business income is taxed at the same rate as employment income.

> Dividend and interest income are taxed at a flat rate of 30%."

>

> There you go, Loz. The above article gives a lot

> more details about Sweden's taxation system. Also

> Municipal tax is just another form of Council Tax

> but based on the ability to pay and appears to

> take into account each person's personal

> allowance. I stand by my original statement Loz.

Based on your own article, municipal tax rate is 31.56%. I don't care how you skirt around it, it an income tax.

Sweden has one of the highest tax rates in the world - your own article proves it!

[Annette Curtain]

How can anyone insulated by such vast private wealth, prescribe how those on the breadline live.

Much like a dentist running a sweetshop, whilst chewing sweets, tell customers to stop chewing sweets & still take their money.

It stinks.

NETTE:-S

Ps.My teeth hurt thinking about it!

[Huguenot]

No d_c you are still misrepresenting my views. I have limited my opinion to the current pensions dispute and the cost and funding structure for it.

I consider the aim of this restructure is to create a fair and equitable solution to the funding crisis. What you are trying to claim is that I'm trying to strip workers of rights and security.

If you live longer you need more money that the nation DOES NOT HAVE. This can be mitigated by working longer, by making larger contributions personally, by taxing private sector workers more, or by reducing services in other areas.

Instead of addressing this, some fuckwits claim money grows on trees, there is no crisis and that they just don't care because they 'don't fancy it'.

Your aggressive binary perspective is both incorrect and destructive. You seem incapable of recognising this as simply trying to balance the books.

All the emotional chaff about botty wiping being thrown into the air around it is simply bollocks. Botty wiping won't solve the maths.

[Undisputedtruth]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Based on your own article, municipal tax rate is

> 31.56%. I don't care how you skirt around it, it

> an income tax.

>

> Sweden has one of the highest tax rates in the

> world - your own article proves it!

"Maximum municipal tax rate by 2010, including the funeral fee but NOT the contribution to the Swedish Church is: 34.75% (in RAGUNDA)

National Income Tax: 25%

MAXIMUM TAX RATE WITHOUT CHURCH TAX: 59.75%

Minimum municipal tax rate by 2010, including contribution to the Swedish Church and funeral fee is: 29.73% (in K?VLINGE)

National Income Tax: 25%

MINIMUM TAX RATE: 54.73%

Minimum municipal tax rate by 2010, including the funeral fee but NOT the contribution to the Swedish Church is: 29.00% (in VELLINGE)

National Income Tax: 25%"

Sweden's municipal rate is anything between 29% and 34.75% depending on where you live. However the 34.75% rate relates to Ragunda with a population of around 5,500.

UK = 20% (basic rate of tax) + 12% (National Insurance) + council tax = 32% + council tax (worth 3%)

As you well know Loz, the majority of tax payers are not in the high tax bracket. I have shown the vast majority of Swedes pays less tax than their UK counterparts if you disregard the tiny but ageing population of Ragunda.

Even if I followed your reasoning then the typical British worker pays more tax than their Swedish counterpart.

[????]

?10 a beer though, give me gross inequality and crumbling social services anyday