Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill

[wulfhound]

As others have posted - the jams are more down to roadworks on Grove Lane and Denmark Hill than anything else, also that the traffic signals haven't been re-timed and can't be until sat navs have been updated.

I also wonder whether the Salvation Army might be persuaded to open up pedestrian access from Harfield Gardens to Glebelands Close to give children a less polluted route to school, or whether that's considered too much of a crime risk.

[sdrs]

There are no roadworks on Grove Lane. The Council were asked to consider deferring the no entry trial until all major roadworks in the area were completed but chose to ignore this, arguing that the Denmark Hill roadworks would not exacerbate the effects of the trial as they were to be undertaken at night and that the even more major Camberwell Green roadworks would not begin until after the trial was over. The roadworks on Denmark Hill began months before the trial did and only slightly affected traffic flow on Denmark Hill. The gridlock we are seeing on Champion Park/Grove Lane/Dog Kennel Hill every morning, thought not helped by roadworks on Denmark Hill, began with and is the direct result of the trial closure of Champion Hill to through traffic.

[sdrs]

PS for accuracy,I wonder if this thread could be renamed? The ?no entry? is into Denmark Hill from Champion Hill, not vice versa.

[James Barber]

London's population has risen in the last 25 years from 6.8million to 8.8 million. And seen increases in road use. London is forecast to see another 2 million residents in the next 25 years. Not changing our roads will see more crazy levels of vehicles use.

The traffic count of Champion Hill showed that it was now carrying the same number of vehicles as local A roads.It has particularly narrow footpaths along the E-W section and was never designed to be a major through route.

I hope more such residential roads are closed stopping often equally high and increasing levels of through traffic.

Plenty of evidence that building new roads or increasing junction capacity generates more vehicles journeys. And vice versa. Humans are amazingly adaptable. But it is painful as people learn to adjust.

PS. I live on Champion Hill and majority of our car journeys are now longer but we're also making fewer as a family as a result of the closure. So all those streets we would have driven along will be benefiting...

[Siduhe]

sdrs Wrote:

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> PS for accuracy,I wonder if this thread could be

> renamed? The ?no entry? is into Denmark Hill from

> Champion Hill, not vice versa.

My bad. Got it the right way round in the actual post but not the original title. Changed the first post and the title above so hopefully that does it.

[sdrs]

Thank you!

[Passiflora]

James Barber Wrote:

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> London's population has risen in the last 25 years

> from 6.8million to 8.8 million. And seen increases

> in road use. London is forecast to see another 2

> million residents in the next 25 years. Not

> changing our roads will see more crazy levels of

> vehicles use.

>

> The traffic count of Champion Hill showed that it

> was now carrying the same number of vehicles as

> local A roads.It has particularly narrow footpaths

> along the E-W section and was never designed to be

> a major through route.

> I hope more such residential roads are closed

> stopping often equally high and increasing levels

> of through traffic.

>

> Plenty of evidence that building new roads or

> increasing junction capacity generates more

> vehicles journeys. And vice versa. Humans are

> amazingly adaptable. But it is painful as people

> learn to adjust.

>

> PS. I live on Champion Hill and majority of our

> car journeys are now longer but we're also making

> fewer as a family as a result of the closure. So

> all those streets we would have driven along will

> be benefiting...

Some of your statements have a quite a selfish attitude James!

[Passiflora]

As pointed out earlier the Champion Park Estate has now become a dead end, i.e. cul de sac, and should be shown on the signs at the top of Dog Kennel Hill as such? Terribly thought out scheme that should have councillors that do not reply to emails, phone calls asking themselves why did they agree to it?

[rendelharris]

Passiflora Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some of your statements have a quite a selfish

> attitude James!

No they don't, that's just plain rude. James has been quite open about the fact that he lives on Champion Hill but is clearly much more interested in the wider issues facing London. Whereas your comments have demonstrated time and again that you think you should be allowed to drive your car wherever and whenever you like, regardless of the consequences for the environment and public health. Sorry, who's got the selfish attitude?

[Passiflora]

Rude? Look at some of your own posts and replies to other comments!

[JoeLeg]

Passiflora Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Some of your statements have a quite a selfish

> attitude James!

How on Earth is any of that selfish? Genuinely perplexed...

[rendelharris]

Passiflora Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rude? Look at some of your own posts and replies

> to other comments!

In what way does your opinion of what I say mitigate your unjustified rudeness to James?

[talfourdite]

guys, has everyone seen the link and taken the time to voice their views on the Southwark feedback link, shown earlier in the thread. I think this change is the worst idea ever and I?m thinking of doing a letter drop through some letter boxes so everyone (including Dulwich residents) can see why their already highly congested traffic has increased so markedly.

I?m struggling to see why Southwark want to force these idiotic detours and journey extensions unequivocally raising pollution so much further. We have an electric car and there is bugger all charging or incentives to support this no brainier policy, surely that would be better than endless local plebiscites which people unilaterally declaring their streets as private rather than public domains.

[sdrs]

Good idea. I wonder if the reason the signage for the scheme is so poor is that Southwark don?t want local people putting two and two together, understanding it is the new no entry from Champion Hill onto Denmark Hill that is causing this congestion with attendant bus delays and pollution in morning rush hour. The signage is so poor that a lot of motorists are still heading into Champion Hill unaware of the no right turn at the end until it is too late, they then find themselves performing U turns and in one case a few days ago a car was seen mounting and driving down the pavement to get down the newly forbidden leg of Champion Hill. None of this is being monitored by the Council who have not yet bothered to get cameras on down there! There have been reports of people driving down as far as Green Dale looking for an exit. The scheme is unnecessary, misguided and dangerous. Re feedback/consultation, a leaflet went to residents of Champion Hill and a few selected neighbouring streets prior to the online survey some months ago but Grove Lane, Camberwell Grove and the whole of the East Dulwich estate (bisected by a brand new rat run thanks to the closure) were all left out. The questionnaire was in any case a tokenistic exercise which the council said would have no effect on the trial going ahead since an experimental traffic order could be undertaken without consultation. Formal consultation is however promised after a six month period of monitoring.

[sdrs]

The project manager for the Champion Hill trial is Joanna Lesak:

[email protected]

She is the Council?s lead contact for feedback about the trial and its impacts. If writing to her, it is worth copying in Councillor Richard Livingstone who is our local Cabinet Member for Transport and Air Quality:

[email protected]

and the two Councillors for Champion Hill Ward

[email protected]

[email protected]

[rendelharris]

sdrs Wrote:

None of this is being monitored by

> the Council who have not yet bothered to get

> cameras on down there!

There is a camera monitoring the junction, on the lampost on the left as you come from DKH - in fact I managed to stop a moped delivery guy yesterday as I cycled there going through the cycle lane, he was very cross until I pointed out I'd saved him a ?80 fine, then he was very nice!

[sdrs]

I?m afraid the Deliveroo guy?s intention to turn into Champion Hill and his outrage at being stopped by you perfectly illustrate my point about the inefficacy of the signage! I don?t know if the particular camera you mention is operational, I would love to believe it is but nothing about this trial has been properly planned or implemented. The NO2 tubes demanded by residents to monitor the effects of the trial on air quality on Dog Kennel Hill, Grove Lane and Champion Park (three roads that constitute a major pedestrian route to local primary schools at the top and bottom of the hill) have yet to materialise. They should have been planned as a matter of course and in place before the trial began.

[TheArtfulDogger]

I'm curious , is Joanna Lesak the same lady who's project managing the CPZ projects ?

If so it doesn't give me any confidence😥

[sdrs]

Yes.

[talfourdite]

Bagpipes..

It strikes me that there simply hasn't been enough thought given to the consequences of the closure for surrounding streets. What residents deserve is some actual data on key issues:

-Officers should give residents of each road where traffic will be displaced an idea of the likely increase in traffic.

-Officers should notify the governing bodies of DKH primary and Lyndhurst primary of the likely effect of increased traffic/ pollution on children

-pollution levels should be tested on Grove Lane, Dog Kennel Hill before and during the trial period

-traffic volumes should be monitored on Grove Lane, DKH and compared before and during the trial period

-Officers should publish robust impact assessments of the trial.

I could not agree more.

Southwark seem to approach traffic management without the faintest idea what makes a properly managed, transparently run experiment, let alone understanding the connectivity of roads and neighbourhoods.

I am even more annoyed that there are no clear grounds for how and why they are spending our precious money on nor what are their (our) long term objectives. These ad-hoc ideas must cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds and are often so idiotic. I totally get that we need to reduce pollution and road use, but a rag tag campaign of road closures just makes traffic far worse and networks more overstressed. Electric charging points and lanes would do the opposite.

Can't we start a local party to run against Labour with local objectives rather than politically motivated ones?

[AylwardS]

I?m not sure what more signage could be erected.. There are two signs on Dog Kennel Hill advising there is no access to Denmark Hill. If you?ve been driving that way for years you probably don?t look at the signs.

Here is the link to the webpage that I think was referred to in an earlier post, you will find the latest information from the Council including a questionnaire. What appears to be missing from the monitoring would appear to be the impact on pollution levels.

The next stages given on the Council website [consultations.southwark.gov.uk] are:

* February - Autumn 2019 (6-9 months): Monitoring period, including settling in period and monitoring surveys, and online feedback questionnaire/liaison with key stakeholders

* Late Autumn 2019: Results of monitoring analysed and presented and consultation on permanent feature

* Winter 2019/20: Decision making-?consultation report and recommendations

* Spring 2020: Make permanent/remove/modifications/mitigation (subject to statutory consultation)

What do we want to monitor?

During the trial we intend to monitor impact of the trial on the following:

* Road safety/traffic dominance on Champion Hill

* Road safety/traffic dominance around Dog Kennel Hill Primary School

* Road safety at the raised table in Champion?Hill

* Access needs for local residents

* Traffic displacement onto adjacent residential roads

* Traffic on Dog Kennel Hill, Grove Lane, Champion Park and Denmark Hill?

I?ve only scanned it but there is a report on next steps which includes info on monitoring and what is expected from the trial. Tie back your feedback to this and show you?ve considered their objectives and the local impact. [consultations.southwark.gov.uk]

Maybe a bit early to respond on traffic impact - I saw new dates for the works at Denmark Hill / Camberwell Green on the way to Denmark Hill today so the increase in traffic might not just be down to the change on Champion Hill, or could be dismissed on those grounds. Maybe use the Councils monitoring form now and when the works finish / weather improves and on the same day / time later in the trial and use that evidence in your response.

Maybe there is merit in a part time closure and monitoring can support that? There are areas that are pedestrianised some of the time and open to traffic others. Would something like that work? It would be wonderful to be able to walk to work / school / the shops but that?s not where we are at and something needs to be done to tackle the situation. This may not be the answer but something has to change I think most would agree

[BellendenBear]

The impact on traffic and pollution for other roads needs to be considered more widely than just the South to North flow from DKH, Grove Lane to Denmark Hill. Champion Hill was also how traffic flowed from East to West from Grove Hill Road, Camberwell Grove and surrounding streets. As has been previously described, the closure of Champion Hill combined with no right turn by DKH school, means that traffic has to use Bromar, Ivanhoe, Pytchley and Quorn roads to turn right onto DKH. These are all residential roads, much narrower than Champion Hill and used by lots of children to get to DKH, Goose Green and Bessemer schools. If James Barber or one of the other residents of Champion Hill can suggest a different way of making this journey I?d be very grateful.

[Cardelia]

AylwardS Wrote:

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> I?m not sure what more signage could be erected..

> There are two signs on Dog Kennel Hill advising

> there is no access to Denmark Hill. If you?ve been

> driving that way for years you probably don?t look

> at the signs.

There are two high-up, tiny yellow signs with small writing on Dog Kennel Hill. One of which, when I saw it yesterday morning, had been turned at an angle so that it was difficult to see from the road when heading up DKH. There are no signs informing drivers that Champion Hill is a dead end until you're actually on Champion Hill itself. There are certainly no large signs with big writing on DKH telling drivers that there has been a change in access rights.

Oh, and whilst I'm thinking about it, a couple of traffic datapoints. Yesterday morning around 8:25 East Dulwich Grove (heading towards Herne Hill) was jammed back as far as the junction with Melbourne. 10 minutes later, Windsor Walk/Grove Lane was jammed all the way back to the top of the hill. This morning around 8:25, EDG was jammed as far as I could see - probably all the way back to the junction with Lordship. Buses going the other way were also being held up because it was difficult to squeeze past the long line of stationary traffic at certain narrow points on the road.

[Beulah]

I agree the signage needs improving. It should be made clear it's now effectively a dead end one-way. "No access to Denmark Hill" isn't enough IMO.

I read this thread prior to it coming into force and it still caught me out the first day I tried it!

However I personally think it's a positive move and would like to see more residential roads made more pleasant for the people that live there by reducing through traffic.

And yes I own a car and drive.

[sdrs]

Grove Lane, while a main road, is ALSO a residential road and a major pedestrian route to local schools, bus stops and stations. The congestion caused by displaced traffic as a direct result of this trial is driving pollution up to dangerous levels. My kids and many others have to breathe it in on their way to school every morning. Bromar and Pytchley Roads likewise are residential. As others have observed, they are much less able to cope with the traffic than Champion Hill was. Dog Kennel Hill is not only densely residential but is where the main Pupil Entrance to the primary school is located. I fail to see how excluding traffic from what was already the healthiest and safest street in the area to make all these streets (and others, from what I?ve been reading) so unhealthy, unpleasant and unsafe, and delay northbound buses in morning rush hour into the bargain, is in any way a positive move.