Peoples vote march - 20 October

[Sparkler]

I want to be there- can you let me know what the plans are? Do we all go up together?

Thanks

Sophie

[Alan Medic]

Sparkler Wrote:

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> I want to be there- can you let me know what the

> plans are? Do we all go up together?

> Thanks

> Sophie

This might help.

[robbin]

Bob Buzzard Wrote:

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> I believe in fairness, equality, celebrating

> diversity, and upholding the rule of law, and also

> cherish the European ideals of our continental

> neighbours.

So do I but let's not look at the EU countries through rose tinted spectacles and kid ourselves in our rush to put the UK down. There's plenty of intolerance, racism and other faults which are in some instances way worse than anything in our country (not least of which is organised crime and corruption). That's particularly so if you are a woman. All the more so if you are a journalist. You only have to remember what happened to Daphne Galizia (Malta), Jan Kuciak (Slovakia) and Viktoria Marinova (Bulgaria) to get an appreciation of what other European societies have to put up with.

[rendelharris]

robbin Wrote:

There's plenty of

> intolerance, racism and other faults which are in

> some instances way worse than anything in our

> country (not least of which is organised crime and

> corruption).

?90BN of criminal cash (minimum) laundered through London each year: https://www.ft.com/content/addd777e-de43-11e7-a8a4-0a1e63a52f9c

Leading Mafia expert says Britain most corrupt country on earth: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/when-a-mafia-expert-tells-us-britain-is-the-most-corrupt-country-in-the-world-its-time-to-start-a7057686.html

[robbin]

First of all, yes, I agree that (often overseas) criminals launder money through the UK. However, that pales into insignificance compared to what goes through offshore jurisdictions (and the effect of the secrecy in some such places). Panama, BVI, Jersey, Nevis, Cayman etc. are often cited by commentators as favourite jurisdictions for laundering. The article in the Independent makes it clear that much of the laundering is through other jurisdictions and the figures on one 'alternative' measure relate to offshore jurisdictions. For example, it says this...

"Many of the criminal corporate activities within the City of London which have dominated the headlines over the past decade are not classified as corruption by Transparency International.

Instead, the media and financial regulators refer to these institutionalised corporate crimes as "inappropriate conduct" or ?mis-selling?.

As an alternative metric for financial corruption, the Financial Secrecy Index developed by the Tax Justice Network instead ranks countries based on the number of tax havens and financial secrecy jurisdictions, with Britain and its spider web of crown dependencies and overseas territories including Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, the Cayman Islands and British Virgin Islands finishing top of the list."

It's fine for fun to lump those countries together, but we don't make the laws in Cayman, BVI etc. They have their own systems, so it's a bit of a bogus 'alternative' analysis.

I'm not (obviously) saying there is not corruption in the UK - plainly there is. There is corruption everywhere, but if anyone seriously thinks there's more structural corruption here than say, in parts of Italy, or Greece, then I don't suppose anything would budge them from such a view.

I appreciate that in some quarters it's trendy to run down the UK and to push the narrative that everything's fantastic in the EU, but I really don't think this particular subject would be the best one to alight upon to push that point.

[rendelharris]

Thank you Robbin, I'm not trying to be "trendy", nor do I believe that corruption is worse in Britain than in other parts of the EU. Just pointing out that your (trendy?) insistence that things are worse in the EU is fairly nonsensical. Stating facts is not trying "to run down the UK" - it's stating facts. Your language has a whiff of McCarthyism about it - you'll be asking why I don't go and live in Europe if it's so great next.

[robbin]

There's nothing to be served by being passive aggressive Rendel - I wasn't having a pop at you (in fact I deliberately chose my words carefully, knowing you can be sensitive to contrary views).

Insofar as I was taking any issue with the facts referred to in your post I was pointing out that the Independent refers to "facts" which don't stand much scrutiny from anyone who knows about fraud and corruption in the UK/EU. If we are meant to take home from the Independent article that the UK is a hotbed of corruption based on money laundering in Bermuda, BVI, Cayman, Jersey etc. that's a bogus line of reasoning because their laws and the functioning of their governments are not the same as (or controlled by) the UK. When an argument (the group mentioned in the Indie - not you) is based on manifestly flawed facts it does have a whiff of trying to find 'alternative' measurements with a view to running down the UK.

I would never suggest you should go and live in another part of Europe. I would miss your posts (post Brexit there's bound to be a disconnection of the internet between the UK and the rest of Europe - I'm sure George Osborne must have predicted that at some stage, along with all his predictions on immediate massive tax rises, market crashes, housing calamity, etc etc etc? If he didn't, I suspect that's only because he didn't think of it!).

[rendelharris]

I think you need to Google "passive aggressive" Robbin - it doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. Alternatively, you could read your last post, which is a fine example of it!

[robbin]

Yes, the irony!

[IlonaM]

Back to the march ...

In today's Independent, 'Final Say: Artist behind children's book Gruffalo produces exclusive merchandise for March for the Future

Tote bag, sweatshirt and baby bodysuit all available ahead of the demonstration'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/artist-gruffalo-merchandise-final-say-brexit-peoples-vote-march-for-the-future-a8578056.html

You can also download free pdf posters to advertise the march [https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/in/pages/15155/attachments/original/1538840478/March_poster_simple_2.pdf?1538840478]

[Sparkler]

Hello

To the discussion of the march; is there a community group from East Dulwich going?

Thanks

Sophie

[Bob Buzzard]

I?m planning to drive there in my Volvo estate and to park in a back street in Camden.

[ed_pete]

Had you down as more of a X5 man myself.

[uncleglen]

FreyaMikaelson Wrote:

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> Labour has turned London into the Middle Eastern

> shit hole it is today. I can only imagine those

> who are voting to remain are supporters of

> terrorism & would like Sharia Law implemented into

> our society. Those voting to remain haven't got a

> clue what's actually going on in this country,

> because you get your opinions from the

> brain-washing lefty media.

Yes- it was not for nothing that the good PEOPLE of Essex voted LEAVE by 62% and since a fair few of them were driven out of their East London areas and their wages undercut by the flood of East European 'tradesmen'...

the stats do not lie

https://ig.ft.com/sites/elections/2016/uk/eu-referendum/

[Asset]

I will be marching on Saturday

[JohnL]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> FreyaMikaelson Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Labour has turned London into the Middle

> Eastern

> > shit hole it is today. I can only imagine those

> > who are voting to remain are supporters of

> > terrorism & would like Sharia Law implemented

> into

> > our society. Those voting to remain haven't got

> a

> > clue what's actually going on in this country,

> > because you get your opinions from the

> > brain-washing lefty media.

>

> Yes- it was not for nothing that the good PEOPLE

> of Essex voted LEAVE by 62% and since a fair few

> of them were driven out of their East London areas

> and their wages undercut by the flood of East

> European 'tradesmen'...

>

> the stats do not lie

> https://ig.ft.com/sites/elections/2016/uk/eu-refer

> endum/

LOL Uncle's got the Daily Express habit of capitalisation :)

[rendelharris]

It may interest Uncle to know that a fair number of those good PEOPLE have changed their mind since: https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/essex-constituencies-switching-seats-leave-1891241

[JoeLeg]

Uncleglen vomited??

>

> Yes- it was not for nothing that the good PEOPLE

> of Essex voted LEAVE by 62% and since a fair few

> of them were driven out of their East London areas

> and their wages undercut by the flood of East

> European 'tradesmen'...

>

> the stats do not lie

> https://ig.ft.com/sites/elections/2016/uk/eu-refer

> endum/

It?s entirely true that the white working class has been shafted by successive governments.

If, perhaps, those governments (both Tory and Labour) hadn?t abolished the high-quality Coty and Guilds apprenticeship schemes and replaces them with flimsy local college courses with utterly nothing, then tradespeople from former communist countries (where they taught them how to actually build a wall and repair a car) would not have been able to compete here.

They did so because their workmanship was superior. It was naff all to do with wages, it was that British tradespeople had gotten such a terrible reputation over the 80?s and 90?s that others had no trouble coming in and taking the work. Fact.

That?s just one of the ways that we?ve blamed the EU for a problem entirely of our own making. There are others. You?ve still never answered my question about whether you?re happy to pay more for goods and services if/when businesses raise prices to accommodate the wages you believe British people are worth (an argument so completely divorced from financial reality it?s astoundong but I?ll continue to indulge you)? Because they surely will.

ETA - ?Stats don?t lie?, hahahahahaaaa! Statistics don?t lie? Hilarious...

[diable rouge]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> Uncleglen vomited??

:) :) :)

[Bob Buzzard]

ed_pete Wrote:

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> Had you down as more of a X5 man myself.

Spent all of my money on school fees.

[Jenny1]

Sparkler Wrote:

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> Hello

>

> To the discussion of the march; is there a

> community group from East Dulwich going?

> Thanks

> Sophie

Hi Sophie. There may well be an ED group going - but I don't know of one. If you'd like to join a specific group, rather than joining the march in general, the Remainiacs podcast team (well worth a listen if you don't already) are inviting people to start the march with them at 12:00 near the 'Best for Britain' stand outside the Dorchester Hotel on Park Lane.

[civilservant]

estimated 0.7 million marchers https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

not all Londoners - Euston station concourse was rammed with home-going Remainers when i passed through there at 5pm

[rendelharris]

Well done marchers, I feel bad now - I guess I've been put off marching after 2,000,000 of us marched against bombing the shit out of Iraq and it made no odds, also I can't be doing with kettling at my age, but I should have been there. Hats off to those less lazy than me, proud of you.

[uncleglen]

How many in 'that' 700,000 were voters in the referendum?

So you think it's ok to waste hours of police time marching AGAINST democracy

How many Remain voters changed to Leave after they witnessed the arrogant and puerile behaviour of Barmier et al?

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> How many in 'that' 700,000 were voters in the

> referendum?

Got no idea. Why does it matter?

> So you think it's ok to waste hours of police time

> marching AGAINST democracy

Ok, let?s get one thing straight you nasty little piece of work - you think it?s ok for anti-EU supporters to spend 49 years arguing for a change, but Remainers are supposed to just shut up and do what they?re told? By people like you?

You live in a DEMOCRACY, as you yourself point out. That means people are ALLOWED to do this kind of thing.

Suck it up, snowflake.

> How many Remain voters changed to Leave after they

> witnessed the arrogant and puerile behaviour of

> Barmier et al?

I don?t know. Do you? Got any links.

And why on earth did you ever think the EU was going to give us an easy ride?

You come on here and berate us for being in a ?lefty bubble?, as your fury at the betrayal of the white British working class burns within you. Your virulent hatred of political opinions that don?t match your own gives the lie to your supposed lack of bigotry, and you can?t stand the idea that Europe - which you openly loath - would stick up for itself.

You yearn for s time when it was Britain for the British, and while you are correct that the white working class has been very hard done by over the last fifty years, frankly a lot of it they did to themselves.

If populism - which you plainly endorse - has been shown to mean anything, it is about blaming other people for problems that are endemic to a society. All the examples you dredge up of terrible behaviour by foreigners over here? There?s just as many regarding British people who live in Asia, for example, or criminals of our own making.

You don?t like Jews, you don?t like Muslims, you don?t like foreigners coming over here. Yes, we get it. You think Brexit is some kind of cure-all which will return us to a land you remember from your childhood. But you yourself tell stories of marching against the fascists in the East End, and you abhor homophobia and religious zealots, so why are so comfortable with hating on non-British?

The same democracy that means I have to accept the result of the referendum also means you have to accept that people can disagree with you. There are horrible shades of totalitarianism in your opinions.