3 year old awake for hours at night

[Gussy]

Hello, sorry for another sleep thread, but wondered if I could get some advice/comfort from some other mums who are still suffering sleep deprivation with their 3 year olds!

My little girl (recently 3) keeps waking in the night (around 2-3 times a week) and is awake for 3-4 hours at a time. (this is in addition to the usual wake ups we get when not doing one of these 'special nights'!, but at least she settles back down after going in...).

Normally she wakes around 1/2am and then typically goes back to sleep around 5-6am (just as my youngest wakes - lovely). She's been doing it for around 8 months now and I've been through everything to try to work out the problem. At first I thought it was to do with dropping the lunchtime nap (and her getting overtired), but after many weeks of experimenting we're back to square one and nap or no nap seems to makes no difference. The only difference will be that if she misses her nap, she goes to sleep quicker at bedtime. We've always had a good routine and she has no problems self soothing. I've also been very observant and quite strict with nap times (ie rushing home every day!)and consider myself a good judge of her under- or overtired.

When she wakes up she just says things like 'I can't get comfy' or 'not tired'. I ask about nightmares, too hot, too cold, thirsty, poorly, too dark etc etc til I'm blue in the face, but she just looks at me blankly, says im ok mummy, I leave and then she starts up moaning/crying again about 10 mins later.

We've never co-slept as she never settles with us, and the same is true now, if she comes into our bed (after going into her room many times) she takes hours to settle to sleep, and as a result myself and my husband don't get any sleep either.

So, can anyone else identify with this? I've Googled and it seems more common than I thought - although all my friends seem puzzled by the length of time she is awake for.

I was wondering about any allergies as I came across a few bits of info where tomatoes or eggs caused sleep disturbances. But I'm not sure if I'm clutching at straws, given this only started middle of last year so wouldn't an allergy present itself before then?

Needless to say, the lack of sleep thing is just hideous. I'm not going to moan on about it as tbh I can count on one hand the times I've actually had a full nights kip since 3 years ago, and accept that it's tough, but being woken at 1am for the rest of the night is b.awful - I may as well not go to bed!!!

I really hope this is just a phase, but its been going on for a long time now......thinking about talking to my GP or some other professional for help. Or do I just have to accept that some children are like this? Arrggg, no :)

x

[Pickle]

No advice I'm sorry, but huge sympathy, what a nightmare.

I would approach your GP, to then perhaps work towards a referral to a sleep specialist. If she's not sleeping much during the day and awake so much at night I don't think that sounds "normal" (whatever normal is!).

Good luck, I hope you manage to get some help.

[Ruth_Baldock]

Seconding pickle. One of my (many) sisters did this and only slept for about 4.5 hours out of every 24. It was ear and teeth troubles but mum also got a referral to a sleep clinic to break my sister of all her sleep habits once the dental etc issues were sorted.

Huge HUGE sympathies though- I can only begin to imagine how tired you are!

[telemum]

Sounds hideous. I deeply sympathise. I don't have quite that level of issue with my two (2 and 4), but one thing that has really helped when they've not been tired enough to sleep or couldn't get back off has been long audiobooks on the ipod (on a dock in their bedroom). They have a selection including the Just So Stories (very, very long) and some bedtime meditation stuff by a lady called Christiane Kerr which I'd recommend pretty highly. These work for both of them, and go on for an hour or so, which may give you a bit of time to rest yourself, or may be enough to 'take her out of herself' so she can get back to sleep.

Apologies if you've tried all that, but it has really helped us - and it works for both older and younger one. And I feel like I haven't entirely abandoned them when they can't sleep, without them having to be in bed with us!

[KSTherapy]

Hi there,

You may want to try Craniosacral Therapy. I have treated quite a few young children with sleep problems with success over the years and to the relief of the family! Feel free to give me a call to discuss 0787 9633674, or email me back. I would be happy to answer any questions. My website is www.kstherapy.co.uk. I work from home in East Dulwich.

I see a lot of sleep deprived Mum's and I know it can be really tough to get through the day. Good luck if I don't hear from you.

Katie Sedgwick

Craniosacral Therapist & Maternity Reflexologist

[kristymac1]

Urgghhh I can totally sympathise, my daughter was frequently awake for 2, sometimes more, hours during the night at age 3 - 4 (can still happen now - she's just started school - but far far less frequently). The worst thing I found was that there was nothing to placate/soothe, she would just insist 'I'm not tired' and was fairly jovial throughout - me and my husband were not! I suffer quite badly with insomnia, sometimes waking after an hour sleep and then awake until the following bedtime and I was desperatley worried that my daughter was suffering the same. I'm not sure we ever found a 'solution' to it, save to say she has grown out of it (mostly) - probably not a very helpful post expcept to say that I know how you feel........

[DaisyDoo]

What good advice & support you've had on this from the replies & how hard it must be for you & your daughter with such lack of sleep. If i were you, I wouldn't hesitate at all to refer her to the specialist sleep clinic, i believe its in the Evelina children's hospital within Guy's & St Thomas's??!!! They are the experts & will do investigations to find out exactly what is going on & what to do. Alos, do explore tooth, tummy, ear ache but don't let your GP take you off tangent, do have that referral made as well.

Best wishes

[cuppa tea]

Have you tried putting her mattress/bed next to yours, or in the same room? Just saying this as she starts crying 10 mins after you leave the room. My son started waking at this age. I think his imagination really kicked in and he became more easily frightened (of the dark, monsters, etc). He came back into our bed and it did seem to solve the problem in our situation....he's still sleeping there at 4.5!! Not for everyone and it doesn't sound like that would work in your case, but maybe her being in the same room could help her resettle? I feel for you. Being awake for hours in the night is just horrendous. I think some children do still wake several times in a night at 3, but the length of time she is awake is not really sustainable for you, so I would definitely not accept that it is just one of those things.

How old is your youngest? Could having a new sibling be affecting her sleep in some way?

[Belle]

There was a documentary on a while back about a little girl of similar age whose parents sought help from a sleep specialist, it was a slightly different sleep issue in that she would be awake and playing/chatting to imaginary friends for hours, and one of the issues was how awake she really was (they couldn't tell if it was sleep talking etc). Anyway it had a happy ending and they were able to understand the problem, and subsequently address it. My son has done this but at a much younger age (the staying awake for several hours thing - am sure I sought advice here, and I do sympathise as it is just exhausting) - I think 8 months of it is a really long time and worth investigating, I'm sure a sleep specialist would take you seriously (and even if they say 'it's a phase, it will pass' - well at least you've explored the options).

[Gussy]

Thank you all very much for your lovely replies. I guess I am a little bit surprised and was hoping a few more would say, yes, same problem here! It's hit home that I need to try to get to the root of the problem. I think you just 'get used' to a situation, and being without family support as many of us are, I just plough on.

Re: sibling not helping, yes I'm sure his 5am wake ups don't help and contribute to my daughter not getting enough sleep- she rarely returns to sleep after she hears him wake.

My hunch(not that I'm sure I trust it!), is that she is overtired and gets 'wired' so can't return to sleep once awake, and I think it's all to do with a very delicate balance of her changing sleep needs and gradually needing less, but I'm blown if I think I can figure out the 'precise' amount/timings, add in colds, brother waking, how much

exercise in day, developmental milestones, and there's just too many variables!! I think I may be a tad unlucky in that she is VERY sensitive and has never been 'relaxed', even as a baby.

I've decided to start a sleep and food diary and see if any patterns emerge. I'm also going to chat to my GP...

Thanks again ladies x

[cuppa tea]

d

[cuppa tea]

I was thinking of her brother affecting her sleep in an emotional way. It's a big change for a little one to suddenly have a sibling taking all the attention. My son started waking in the night when we had a new baby. I don't exactly know why, but he did really struggle with jealousy.

Hope you can get to the bottom of it. It's worth investigating so you can all get some sleep.

[childsleepsolutions]

Hi there, great advice from everyone. It is definitely something that requires intervention of some sort but don't worry, whilst no one has said me too on here I'm a child sleep consultant and its certainly not a rare problem. I get at least one client a week with a child over 2 who is awake for hours at night, so don't worry, I doubt there is anything physically wrong you are probably right, she is just completely overtired. If a child gets overtired their levels of cortisol raise which make it harder for them to get to sleep and stay asleep.

[helena handbasket]

Hi Gussy. Sorry I wasn't going to post but see you need to know you are not alone....... and you aren't! My son is five and has done this on and off for years. It's really a tough one, isn't it? We have gone through phases of good sleep (when I sleep trained him at 10 months we had a great year after) or a couple of months of normalish nights, but then a wave of hard nights. We seem to have bad weeks mixed in with good weeks, sort of 2 or 3 good ones and then a bad one.

Honestly if I look back over the years there is a pattern of mental activity to explain it, either a new skill that's playing in their head or a new situation (as you mentioned a sibling), changes in school, friends, whatever. We call it the butterfly affect because it seems that if a butterfly flaps it's wings in Brazil, it will have a ripple effect on my son's sleep :)

No health concerns have materialized, and over the years I have come to the conclusion that some children are just hard wired to be a bit more high alert. I read an interesting theory recently that these high alert children in cave man terms would have kept the tribe alive; while the tribe slept or sang or whatever, the alert ones saw or heard danger before the others noticed.

Anyway, I'm a big believer in sleep health and try really hard to maintain really consistent habits to at least minimize the affects. We bumped his bedtime earlier to work in an extra hour for the nights he loses out (because he has to be up at 7:00 for school now, regardless of his night). Of course this means we are up an extra hour early on the nights he hasn't been up, but sounds like you are up anyway. Other than that I wish I had some suggestions. I like the sound of the ipod stories, but knowing my son he would start waking every night to get it so it wouldn't work for us. Good luck, I know other people with similar experiences so it's not that rare.

[Grumpy Hamster]

Really sympathise with you Gussy - this must be extremely hard for the whole family.

Is there any chance this is linked to potty training? When our 3 year old has woken up in the night it has usually been wanting a drink or a wee. It's the only suggestion Mrs Grumpy Hamster and I have at present I'm afraid.

Best of luck.