drinking alcohol with children in the house

[The Nappy Lady]

Careful, I gather we (Family Room Bullies) are ganging up - pushchairs fully armed, bottles of milk at the ready, I'm swinging my baby reigns around my head ready to launch an attack.

If 'we' agree on a subject it's bullying, if 'they' agree on a subject it's objective criticism.

Love & peace people.

[hellosailor]

I was actually thinking that tonight, me and my partner might actually put out daughter down in her maxi cosi instead of her cot, thus hopefully reducing the potential for her having a household accident while in her sleep into the bargain, and head straight down to Kings car park to eat our dinner and have a glass of wine in the car. That should shave a good 3 or 4 minutes off our response time in the event of an emergency, as well as being a fun night out for all the family.

[Ruth_Baldock]

HS: I just snorted my coffee all over my iPhone Reading your response.

When Seb was born, one of the production companies my husband worked with sent loads of nice baby stuff and choccies...and one of those BOXES of wine. You know, with the taps attached? Brilliant. It came in useful although my husband offering the MW a glass when she did her home visit didn't go down too well...

[buggie]

...wonders if she should request a bar area in paeds A&E for parents (JOKE - incase anyone reading doesn't spot that)

[Otta]

I do have to say that (whilst obviously to me, unintentionally), the tone of a lot of the posts on this thread could contribute to a real "us and them" feeling, which surely parents should be trying to dispel rather than strengthen.

At the end of the day, I think it's important to accept that there are some selfish, arrogant parents out there, and rather than allow yourselves to be tarred with the same brush, whilst screaming war cries from your chariots (buggies) like a bunch of coffee infused Boudicas, it might be worth pointing out that you are different.

I am a proud parent, but I certainly won't defend all parents to the hilt.

[Otta]

Some people are

selfish idiots. They include smug, self-

justifying parents who have no

consideration for the way they and their

children behave in public and the effect

that this has on others. They also,

however, include people who constantly

complain about their precious little lives

being interrupted by the unwelcome

presence of kids, prams etc. in, God forbid,

shops, cafes and pubs.

Fortunately, the majority of people are not

selfish idiots, and somehow manage to rub

along with each other.

Surely the most common sense, and spot on post on the whole subject.

[The Nappy Lady]

I totally agree Otta, no intention to defend all parents & I appreciated that very sensible post on the other thread.

You are right, we shouldn't encourage the 'them & us' thing, though sadly I have always felt it's presence on the forum.

This FR thread started quite sensibly with a question about a raised issue but we have all been very naughty & taken it off at a tangent. It has been entertaining though.

[Pickle]

Also agree Otta, and sincerely hope that my kids and I aren't one of the parents being referred to on the other thread (given that I've been to a pub - the Herne - around 2 times in the last 4 years, and not since last summer, I doubt it!)

I guess I do feel, however, that no matter how reasoned and calm responses from parents on the subject are, they still somehow manage to get shot down by some of the other posters on the thread.

A couple of years ago I remember there being a thread slating parents for pushing buggies around the Northcross Road market on Saturdays. At the time I got really wound up about it (especially as at the time I had two very small children and a Phil 'n' Teds) and started resisting when Mr Pickle suggested we go to the market to pick up lunch etc. When he realised why I was worried about it he couldn't believe that I had let comments on a forum get to me so much - and reminded me that it's a vocal few and not the majority of ED residents that feel that way.

(while at the same time muttering something about me using "that bl**dy forum too often, and this is what happens"... ;-) )

Parents, especially new parents, and possibly Mums in particular, are at a very vulnerable time in their lives when children are small. Reading a constant stream of comments from people complaining about pretty much every aspect of parenting can be very depressing and hurtful, even when not being directed at any one individual.

I take heart from the fact that having met a lot of the other parents that use this board, everyone seems refreshingly normal - a variety of different parenting styles and opinions, but at the end of the day a group of people who are united in the fact we have children and live in a great area of London for bringing them up.

[Saffron]

Well said, Pickle, on every point! xx

[Saffron]

Pickle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've just braved a look at that thread - the

> poster suggesting parents shouldn't drink doesn't

> have children and doesn't drink - priceless :))

Woohoo! Who was it? I'll have him/her round to look after Little Saff while Husband and I go down to the pub and get legless!!!!

;-)

[Marie81]

Just to make a point I have absolutely no problem with children in pubs or anywhere else in Dulwich and was talking about parents who get drunk. The whole thing was taken out of context, I mentionned parents drinking as another poster had commented how THEY thought it was disgusting when she saw a couple with a child drinking in the pub so I commented that both parents may not of been drinking as I have been to the pub with my niece for a coffee or to meet friends for lunch it doesn't always mean because you're in the pub you're getting sloshed! I then said how if both parents were drinking and I mean heavily or if you are one of those who just a glass of wine and that gets you drink then that would apply to you then I thought it was a bit irresponsible if you were meant to be caring for your kids. The whole thing has been turned into an argument with an other poster where I feel they have taken my comments out of context and as being rude and argumentative when I didn't mean to be at all and was just merely stating my opinion and I certainly didn't mean to offend any parents out there.

[helena handbasket]

But you said what you said. People are quoting YOUR ACTUAL WORDS, which clearly have offended a number of readers.

The fact that it wasn't what you meant doesn't mean people don't have a right to be offended by what you actually really did say. Nothing has been twisted or taken out of context; you need to take some ownership of your statement I think instead of pointing fingers.

Don't blame hellosailer if you didn't articulate what you meant to say.

[Marie81]

But I explained what I meant in my further comments and was infact going to edit the first post to say that I meant parents drinking heavily but didn't think I would need to as thought that would be obvious. Then hellosailor commented and went off on one so I thought there was no point in going back and editing my post and there was nothing I could say to explain as she/he was stuck on repeating my first comment over and over even in this thread. I do think some of the things were taken out of context and I do take ownership of my statement. There is nothing left to say now and I think we should all move on to something more interesting....

[Grumpy Hamster]

As a parent of 3, including twins, and someone who enjoys responsible drinking, I think it will probably be quite clear where my views on this lie. And I think on this thread at least it is pretty much game, set and match.

However, good for Marie81 to join this thread and state that she 'didn't mean to offend any parents'. It probably might have been easier for her to ignore this thread or post something more inflamatory.

Right that said I'm off to drink meths and try and sell the youngest on e-bay.

[helena handbasket]

Grumpy Hamster Wrote:

------------------------------------------------------

>

> However, good for Marie81 to join this thread and

> state that she 'didn't mean to offend any

> parents'. It probably might have been easier for

> her to ignore this thread or post something more

> inflamatory.

>

True.

[hellosailor]

Agreed

[Adam&Fiona]

For those who haven't read the earlier stuff on the other thread, the discussion wasn't actually about the moral in's and out's of parents drinking in front of their kids.

The topic was about parents who fill spare seating in cafes and pubs (particularly the smaller places) with buggies etc and refuse to move everything to free up more space. It seems that some people had spoken to the owners of some of these places and the owners had said it is annoying if 2 mums are taking up 4-6 seats (and drinking just coffee etc) and are there for the whole of the busy lunch period and costing the owners other paying customers due to the lack of space.

After citing a couple of examples of women that had been asked to move their belongings to create room and having this refused under the indignation of them being paying customers, the theme was generally to voice annoyance at the inconsiderate mums around. NOT all mums! Just the rude ones who display a certain sense of entitlement and are offended at even being asked to move their pushchairs.

No-one at first was suggesting that you can't bring buggies etc into pubs or that kids shouldn't be there. Simply that more effort could be made by individuals in some cases to see that they are taking up space, that the establishment is busy and that they could have some dialogue with the owner about a suitable place to put pushchairs etc whilst they eat.

How do the nice family room people feel about the actual issue, rather than the personal garbage that happened afterwards?

[The Nappy Lady]

Well..... I always tried to go to places that have lots of room, like bread of life cafe, or park cafe & leave the buggy outside. But there are times it is tricky if baby is asleep etc.

I do feel for cafe owners who need the tables to turnover enough to ensure a steady income on food etc & certainly not just coffee (even if over priced)!

So, I see both sides & would like to think most people can be considerate about these things. I think sometimes Mums are just tired, stressed out etc & probably react badly in the moment (remembers sobbing outside what was Somerfield on Lordship Lane after mistaking the time & getting a parking ticket when my first was tiny - the warden must have thought I was a nutter). :-$

I know that until I had kids I had no idea what it is really like, and with the best will in the world I suspect some (not all) of those who are quick to condem parents on the forum also fall into that category. It's just a fact that it is very hard to really understand how hard it can be - after all we are just swanning around, drinking coffee in cares (or wine in pubs?) all day..... Right?

I don't see how the cafe problem can be fixed to be honest. Personally I have no desire to struggle into a crowded cafe with a buggy and then sit there whilst constantly having to allow others to squeeze by me so I plan to avoid those places. Maybe certain cafes need to simply set themselves up to deter the Mums brigade if they don't want them, I'm sure there is enough other trade in ED to keep them in business?

Creative ways to let us know (politely) that we are not welcome on the premises ladies?!

[ClareC]

It all comes down to consideration. If everyone showed consideration to one another the world would be a far more pleasant place. The reality is some people are considerate, others inconsiderate. There are parents and non parents in both categories.

I'm with Molly in that I actively avoid taking the buggy anywhere small, and on the bus for that matter. When I meet with friends it tends to be home, playgroups or the park.

Dare i say it but pre toddler days the pubs worked well on the basis of having plenty of space for buggies. One NCT meet amounted to 6 buggies! funnily enough we didn't drink alcohol, just chatted and drank hot chocolate, sometimes had lunch whilst the babies slept, fed or played. The pubs were fairly empty in the daytime so more lucrative business was not being turned away and because we purposely chose spacious venues there was never any issue of buggies being in the way.

These days with baby and toddler we tend to go to the parks / one another's homes, play groups etc.

[Moos]

Adam&Fiona, puzzled by your post.

Are you citing the example raised by DamianH on p.3? I may have missed another one raised later in the thread, but if you are the story is different in your version, which is strange.

The other thing that is puzzling is your saying 'no-one is saying you shouldn't bring children into pubs' - that was exactly the suggestion of the OP, and quite a topic in the last few pages of the thread.

No reason why you can't raise your own topic, but it's not a direct repetition of the thread in the general section at all, and if you are citing Damian's example, why have you made the behaviour described so much worse?

[ClareC]

Moos Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Adam&Fiona, puzzled by your post.

>

> Are you citing the example raised by DamianH on

> p.3? I may have missed another one raised later

> in the thread, but if you are the story is

> different in your version, which is strange.

>

> The other thing that is puzzling is your saying

> 'no-one is saying you shouldn't bring children

> into pubs' - that was exactly the suggestion of

> the OP, and quite a topic in the last few pages of

> the thread.

>

> No reason why you can't raise your own topic, but

> it's not a direct repetition of the thread in the

> general section at all, and if you are citing

> Damian's example, why have you made the behaviour

> described so much worse?

Totally agree Moos. Totally different to my recollection too, didn't have time to re read though to check. Glad you have confirmed what I thought!

[hellosailor]

I always look through the window before I even think about going in a cafe to see if there is going to be somewhere to put my buggy without it being in the way, this is obviously partly because I don't want to be in the way or put the cafe owner / other customers out, but also because from a personal point of view, there is of course nothing relaxing about having a coffee if you feel like you're in the way or people are tutting at having to squeeze past you!

If I thought there was even a slight chance I would be in the way due to lack of space, I would not go in somewhere, simple as that.

We really don't all have the hide of a rhinoceros and teflon coating so that tsssks and grumpy stares bounce off us un-noticed, in all honesty I'm pretty much already cringing / preparing to apologise for my presence before I even set foot in a shop / pub/ cafe with my buggy (I know not everyone feels like this but I have always felt very self conscious about pushing a buggy.) One of the reasons that groups of mums do meet in pubs like The Bishop, The Actress etc during the afternoon (no, not getting drunk...!) is for the very reason that they have a lot more space for buggies and you don't have to feel like you're putting anybody out by taking up room in there with your buggy. I went for a coffee in the Actress with some other mums and babies in the mid afternoon a few days ago and the three of us were literally the only people in there. The staff are always almost comically welcoming because they barely have customers at that time so all 3 bar staff rush over to give themselves something to do!

When I do go to cafes, 99% of the time, whatever the weather, I sit outside to avoid the feeling that my buggy is in the way inside. It's a tricky one, I'm a mum and yet even I find it frustrating when I feel penned in by buggies somewhere, but I guess there's no easy solution. Mum's need to go to places too and babies have to go in buggies!

[Adam&Fiona]

Deary me Moos.

You quote me as saying 'no-one is saying you shouldn't bring children into pubs' and use it to fit your post. When if you read ever so slightly above you will see what i actually said was "No-one AT FIRST was suggesting that you can't bring buggies etc into pubs" - my point being that the thread started off fairly inoccuously and then people took over and made their own personal gripes.

Why did you change my words? Madness!

I've just moved to East Dulwich and enjoyed the forum as a way of finding out about good places to eat etc. Plus I was impressed by the local passion. Now after only my second ever post (which i thought was simply explaining an issue rather than offering any real opinion) and reading how threads get out of hand I am already sick of people's attitude.

That's me done on the site now. Thanks!

[Magpie]

Hellosailor - I think you sum up my view pretty neatly - it is not fun going anywhere with a buggy, and less so when you are conscious that its in the way. I also agree with your point about baby friendly pubs - for 5 out of 7 days of the week the majority of businesses in ED rely on the family market. Then suddenly at the weekend a load of childless 20-somethings appear, generally hungover and grumpy and moan about prams taking over their area!

[Moos]

Well, I'm on my mobile so I did extrapolate - sorry if I misquoted you.

However, it was the very first post of the thread that suggested if mums wanted to drink, they should hire a babysitter.So in that instance I do thinkthe question stands.

Also sorry if my attitude offended you. I had made an effort to put my questions politely, obviously that was not successful. Hope you enjoy living in ED and are not too upset. That was not my intention at all.