Planning permission - how??? Neighbour from hell

[Mabel2001]

Further photos in seperate following posts as files are too big.

Photo 2.

[Mabel2001]

Photo 3

[Mabel2001]

Photo 4

As you can see - just awful!

[ShinyShiny]

Are you sure the front garden is communal? I'm the leaseholder of a similar property and own the front garden, the downstairs flat does not. I would consult my neighbours before doing anything drastic, however it's ultimately my responsibility and decision on how to maintain the garden.

I think you can download title plans from here for a small fee http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/

[Mabel2001]

Thanks for your message, Pedders have since looked up the title plans and the garden belongs to Southwark Council.

We have two front doors next to each other with entrances through the garden (not upstairs-downstairs), so the garden was used in two halves, though all owned by the Council.

The Council tenant does not have the right to do as she wishes with the garden. But why would the council give permission for her to PAY to concrete over their land? They should be protecting green space! The reason she gave the workmen is that she did not want to pull out weeds.

It's all very ironic as the Wildlife Centre is around the corner, trying to teach people how to green urban spaces.

[peterstorm1985]

It sounds as if you just have a right of access across the garden not a right of enjoyment so, sadly, it ends there (unless you had been using the garden for many years in which case you may have acquired a right). The photos show paving slabs, rather than solid concrete so it may not be irreversible but unlikely to change until the tenant leaves.

I wonder if the council tenant had a duty under her tenancy agreement to maintain the front garden; that might have led to her worrying about not weeding and the unfortunate events that followed.

What I want to know now is who or what is buried in the coffin?

[Huguenot]

The coffin looks like it might impede access to your front door?

Could you pursue that line to get it removed?

[Mabel2001]

That's a good idea... hadn't thought of that one...

I knw we don't have any rights to the garden, however the Council should not have given permission to concrete it over!

[jimmah]

you could put some containers with trailing plants on top of that coffin thing which should disguise it a bit. Maybe some alpines in the cracks between the paving slabs would soften the front too.

It does look stark at the moment but it will weather in, I think painting milk on stone encourages moss and things to grow.

Even small pansies will root in at the edges.

I know that doesn't solve the council issue but it will make it easier for you to look at.

[Mabel2001]

Here is a letter I have just received from Southwark Council, to which I would love some advice on how to take this further. Our next door neighbours on the immediate other side of the property are upset also.

Dear ---

Further to your query concerning the provision of a hard surface to the front garden area at the above property, I write to advise you of our findings.

As the premises is not a dwellinghouse, it does not benefit from permitted development rights. The provision of a hard surface in such circumstances would require express planning permission. However in this case it was not expedient to pursue enforcement action as the impact of what is a non-permeable hard surfacewould be negligible upon local drainage. The other potentially harmful factor was the visual impact, which was not considered sufficient to warrant enforcement action.

Your neighbour who is elderly was finding it incresingly difficult to maintain the front garden, which is why she had the hardstanding installed. In coming to our decision, we balanced this and the potential impact of an overgrown front garden against the hard I have referred to above.

I would like to thank you for bringing this breach of planning to our attention and hope you understadn why in this instance we have decided not to pursue enforcement action. Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any queries.

[Gidget]

Southwark are the freeholders, so they own the land. I would sue them for any loss you suffered.

[damzel]

Isn't one of the purposes of planning permission to give interested parties the opportunity to voice their concerns prior to work being undertaken? Sounds like you could have come to some agreement with yr neighbour regarding the upkeep. What a ridiculous shame they didn't follow procedure. I don't really understand the urgency to bypass this step either!

[peterstorm1985]

Mabel2001 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Here is a letter I have just received from

> Southwark Council, to which I would love some

> advice on how to take this further. Our next door

> neighbours on the immediate other side of the

> property are upset also.

>

>

> Dear ---

>

............. The other potentially harmful

> factor was the visual impact, which was not

> considered sufficient to warrant enforcement

> action.

>

> Your neighbour who is elderly was finding it

> incresingly difficult to maintain the front

> garden, which is why she had the hardstanding

> installed. In coming to our decision, we balanced

> this and the potential impact of an overgrown

> front garden against the hard I have referred to

> above. ..............

In terms of where you go with this, you need to ask what there is to gain/lose. Your 'loss' in financial terms was small (and could be deemed non-existent if you did not have the right to use the garden), so there is no point considering legal action for loss.

Unfortunately, the lack of interest from the planning department is probably due to the fact that you are the only complainant. If your neighbours are also upset they should do as you did and complain. Visual impact is subjective so if only one person complains then it would be difficult to justify the cost of enforcement. However, if they received 20 complaints it would be more difficult to judge the visual impact as not significant.

It may be worth writing back and stating - if it is true, and you haven't already done so - that you would have been happy to maintain the garden and so should have been consulted but without other complaints I'm afraid it is unlikely that you will get much response.

The only other option is to consider something media orientated; with a view to highlighting the dangerous precedent being set by councils.

[Mabel2001]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I just had a very informative phone call from the case manager at the Council.

Our neighbour did not follow procedure to inform the Council that she was carrying out the work on their land, so she is in breach of her tenancy agreement and has technically broken the law. Because of her age, they are not bringing a planning enforcement case against her, so they are not threatening her by law to remove the concrete. The case manager expressed surprise that anyone would take the extreme step of paying to concrete over the garden, because if the tenant had shown that she could not maintain the garden, or told them she was worried about it, there is a scheme within the council to help and they would have sent a gardener round.

No-one obviously wants to upset an elderly lady, so the case manager visited and phoned a few times, explaining and asking her to remove the concrete. She was abusive and refused, saying she will be in the ground herself before the Council takes her to court.

The Council says that because of budget cuts they will not pay to have the concrete removed, but we ourselves can pay privately to remove it without fear of prosecution from the Council (our neighbour is powerless as it's not her land). We would be opening ourselves up to a tenancy dispute, but as the Council have informed her in writing that she must remove the concrete, we are in the right so to speak.

The Council suggested that we compromise by removing the concrete box outside our front door leaving us able to replant our garden, and leave the concrete paving on her side (the majority of the area). If we do choose rip it up, obviously this will be a bigger issue for her and we should/could offer to help her maintain her garden.

Thoughts? Anyone know a reasonable masonry remover in the area?!?

[peterstorm1985]

Put a sign up saying "Free paving slabs, Just take what you need."

[fazer71]

Cheapest options get a skip ?150 + club hammer ?10 and do it yourself.

Yea the coffin doesn?t look great; I guess she wants to use it as a seat?

All the locals ganging up against an old woman and ripping apart something she has spent money on is not a great idea.

The other option would be to buy a ton of pebbles and cover the slabs with them which would look a lot better and then paint the coffin a nice colour.

Would save upsetting the old woman.

That would cost less than ?160 too.

And it would be low maintenance look a lot better.

I you have the money you could even put a big pot in the middle with a nice miniature cherry blossom growing out of it.

She?s trying to make life nicer she just doesn?t know how.

I?m sure if you discuss it with her you?ll come to an amicable solution and have a lovely relationship with your neighbour.

If not then.

See what it looks like in a few years when it?s weathered in a little you could cover it with yogurt to help speed up the weathering process ?? cost a few pots of yog..

[Mabel2001]

No-one is ganging up on an old lady, that is the whole point.

[indiepanda]

I don't quite understand why she is getting special treatment from the council because she is old - doesn't that make her old enough to know better? She can't be that infirm if she was capable of arranging to have the work done in the first place. In any case, even if she wasn't aware of the rules, she's clearly gone ahead and done something without considering your feelings which should have been evident to her based on the work you put into the garden.

However, since she has been abusive to the council I am not sure it's really worth getting into a battle with her about it. I certainly wouldn't suggest ripping up the concrete on her side, that would seem to be looking for a fight even though your neighbour is in the wrong. But doing as the council suggested and removing the concrete box on your side so you can replant the garden seems reasonable to me.

[maxxi]

The 'coffin' looks decidedly unsafe - I would have it removed asap.

[fazer71]

Make sure the coffin is empty?

I'm starting to get into this thread in a kind of dark ozzy osbourne way paint a cross on the coffin.

http://gossip.whyfame.com/files/2010/12/ozzy_osbourne1.jpg

http://cdn.mos.musicradar.com/images/Product%20News/epiphone-zakk-wylde-graveyard-disciple-460-100-460-70.jpg

[Twirly]

Mabel2001 Wrote:

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> No-one is ganging up on an old lady, that is the

> whole point.

No, they're not, but I'll bet that she won't see it like that, and should this be taken further I can quite easily see how she could manipulate the situation to make her look like the victim and you look like the bully, although it's the other way around.

From what you've said, although she has broken the rules, the council probably have limited resources, particularly at the moment, and just don't see it as worth pursuing with just one complainant against another - a neighbour dispute, hence giving you permission to remove it if you see fit.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Gidget]

Mabel2001 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No-one is ganging up on an old lady, that is the

> whole point.

You started a thread entitled Neighbour from Hell.

[fazer71]

Mabel2001

*back pedal back pedal pedal back pedal*

I've had another look at the photos and it's not been concreted over, it's been slabbed technically quite different.

Do you know what,,,, the more I look at the pics the more I like it,,,, it?s got a new century edge about it that makes for a certain south london charm.

I know it?s not conctete (concrete house) but it does have that typical south london look about it.

Who?s for getting this garden listed with english heritage?

[Mabel2001]

'Neighbour from hell' - well ok, strong words, but let's see how you might feel if you woke up one morning to find a garden bed you had planted ripped up and the entire front of the property slabbed over with no discussion, no notice, and a concrete box erected in front of your door. Then you discover that not only has your neighbour not gone through proper channels and applied for plannning permission or even spoken with the council, the garden does not even form part of her Council housing lease, it is seperate from the house. She is then abusive to the Council, who take the kind position of not prosectuting her for a Planning Enforcement Breach because of her age.

Though she is elderly, she is perfectly agile, she is not disabled or ill and I've often seen her moving her wheelie bins around. The workmen who she paid to do the work told us that she wanted it done as she did not want to have to pull up weeds. The garden on 'her' side had nothing growing in it, only gravel and a few stray weeds. If she was worried about maintaining the garden, there are schemes within the Council to help her and other volunteers to help her.

If you or I had done this, we would be forced to remove the concrete, and potentially be fined or lose our council home.

As it is, as private tenants, we're prepared to pay for our choice to improve the appearance of the garden in front of our door. We've already compromised by saying we won't remove the lot to cause her the least distress - many people wouldn't even consider her feelings as what's been done is an eyesore by any stretch of the imagination.

Though there have been some very nice suggestions on the board on how to improve the garden and handle the situation, I can't understand the attitude of some. We're a young couple who just wanted to ask for advice from residents, not invite abuse. Over and out.

[fazer71]

When you get your growing patch back, try growing some sensi de humour it's quite good for you.

Maybe you'll end up a happy old couple.

Realise that at some time even the best neighbours, will drive you mad.