E.D.Station controlled parking zone

[James Barber]

Hi karter,

Yes, it is clear on the East Dulwich Forum people are generally against controlled parking near East Dulwich station. But those that have stated they live in the proposed streets for the controlled parking seem to be in favour.

My own personal experience of meeting people on doorsteps is those closer to the station in the proposed zone are very much in favour.

This means that potentially weighing up the wishes of people near the station who say they're suffering parking problems against those that are not currently suffering parking problems but fear they will if the zone is implimented.

The damned if you do and the damned if you don't problem.

So I await the consultation results with keen interest.

Hi Ris2011.

Petitions without full names and addresses although interesting are a problem. With the North Cross Road Sunday Market consultation it became clear that not having to give such details made the responses such that it threw the whole consultation in my mind under suspicion. It looked like one side had really doctored the results,

Its also important for the petition to have clear wording that people are signing up to. If its a loaded closed question that also wont help your cause. If you wish to discuss this via email. I'm keen that the best overall decision is made and would like ot ensure that any petitions are done such that they could carry weight.

[bonaome]

You might want to make your views known, or pose questions to ...

Councillor Barrie Hargrove

Cabinet Member for Transport, Environment and Recycling

His phone number is: 020 7525 7311

His email is: [email protected]

He has a surgery the 1st and the 4th Friday of every month 6-7pm, at Peckham library. So he should be there this Friday (28th Oct) and next Friday (4th Nov). Why not pop over and see him to ask him about the proposals in the consultation.

You can also email the other ward councillors, why let poor old James take all the strain ...

Councillor Jonathan Mitchell, 020 7525 2839 / 07903 967911 [email protected]

Councillor Rosie Shimell, 020 7525 3488, [email protected]

The Consultation document says the consultation closes on 11th November, but in fact there are several stages between there and rolling out the scheme.

[James Barber]

Hi bonamoe,

Cllr Jonathan Mitchell is taking a well earnt holiday this week.

[bonaome]

James Barber Wrote:

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> Hi karter,

> Yes, it is clear on the East Dulwich Forum people

> are generally against controlled parking near East

> Dulwich station. But those that have stated they

> live in the proposed streets for the controlled

> parking seem to be in favour.

Do you mean on the forum?

Looking back over the posts in the whole thread I can find 3 that appear to be in favour from people who seem to be suggesting or saying they live in the proposed CPZ.

- garnwba October 19, 02:23PM

- Andrew1011 October 22, 05:04PM

- and ingridcjones October 22, 11:25PM

vs. 8 from people who say or suggest they live in the proposed CPZ and who appear to be against it.

- Peckhampam October 19, 01:19PM,

- Bobby P October 20, 11:43PM,

- Mscrawthew October 22, 02:22PM,

- bugsbgone October 23, 05:13AM,

- Widdy October 23, 08:45AM,

- peckhamasbestos October 23,02:20PM,

- Moos October 23, 08:42PM,

- and first mate Today, 07:32AM

I only hope that's reflective of the proportions not on the forum.

Quite a few making reference to having lived in a CPZ before and having seen first hand, as I have, that whist CPZ have brought extra expense (cost of permits) and inconvenience (fewer vistors, extra expense for workmen, desirable commuters deterred too - the ones who keep the local shops alive, work at the local school ... ) they've not actually eased parking pressure.

[Penguin68]

the wishes of people near the station who say they're suffering parking problems

James - the evidence suggests that only a small percentage of cars parked in these roads (10%, 14%?) are 'commuter' (in the sense that they might be cars of people who then use ED station to complete their journey. Some will be 'commuters' who work locally (like the people who teach at the school - good idea to keep that sort of scum out) - but most of the problem (probably - given the evidence of people who find it difficult to find spaces in the evening) is that we now have more cars than space to park them in where we live.

Offer people in the CPZ streets a 'this could solve your problems' message and of course they will vote yes - but that, frankly, is a lie. A CPZ will reduce parking space availability in any given street (i.e. there will be less space to park in) and will not solve (unless permits are rationed to one a household) the over-car-ed problem (which is a 'good' problem as it reflects affluence and better life-styles). Unless you would prefer your constituents not to have a better life style or to be affluent?

[Peckhampam]

Ondine and I think Coplestone and maybe some of the others are in South Camberwell ward. Councillors are Veronica Ward, Stephen Govier and Peter John

[Cherabel]

Hi

I live on St Francis Road which is right by the station and within the proposed CPZ. I have rarely had problems parking and think the proposed changes are completely unnecessary. I have filled out the consultation form with a big, fat NO.

[prickle]

I also live in the proposed CPZ on Elsie. Happy with the current situation so I have filled in consultation with a NO.

[atria]

I live on Derwent Grove and FULLY support this long overdue CPZ proposal. I have completed my support of the survey along with several other residents on Derwent Grove. The reasons are that from Monday to Friday 7am to 7pm it is impossible to park on our road. This is due to commuter parking for East Dulwich station and the situation is untenable. My wife will often have to double park to unload shopping or circle streets for up to 20 minutes or more for a space. My parents no longer visit their grandchildren during week as no space available to transfer my dad who cannot walk far. A two hour limit to address commuter parking during Monday to Friday is all that is required. This will solve problem for those with younger families or based at home during week. If you commute by train Monday to Friday I suspect not a problem but do appreciate others when considering proposal.

[Widdy]

It's odd that if so many people are for the CPZ so few have come on here to say so. If there are so many of them, I'm sure a few more would have vocalised something they presumably feel so strongly about here.

Although some people may have been campaigning for a CPZ over the years, it seems to be the silent majority of people living in and around the proposed CPZ (who've had no reason to raise this issue until now) dont want a CPZ, and they havent had the opportunity (or need) to articulate their opinion until now.

If the decision really hasn't been made, it seems clear from the responses on here that the CPZ won't be implemented. But we'll see.....

[karter]

From the Dulwich Community Council meeting 15th September.

15. GROVE VALE FIRST AND SECOND STAGE PARKING

CONSULTATION

Mat Hill from Public Realm was present to give an overview of the first and second stage

consultation that took place around Grove Vale.

The officer explained that twenty two roads were consulted on the principle of a controlled

parking zone in East Dulwich and South Camberwell wards.

The consultation area concentrated on streets around Grove Vale, which were a short

walking distance from East Dulwich railway station. The streets were last consulted in

2002 - 2003 as part of a Dulwich wide parking study.

The boundary of Dulwich and Camberwell runs along the centre line of Grove Vale and 10

Dulwich Community Council - Thursday 15 September 2011

therefore agreement was sought from both community councils.

All residents, businesses and stakeholders were included in the consultation. However,

any decision to progress a CPZ would only apply on the public highway and not on

housing estates or private parking areas.

RESOLVED:

That members note and approve the report outlining the consultation methods and

boundaries for the Grove Vale first and second stage parking consultation. Members note

that a further report would be presented at Dulwich community council meeting on 24

January 2012. After which it would be taken as a IDM (individual decision making) report

in February 2012 and, if approved, statutory consultation should take place in March 2012.

[bonaome]

Widdy Wrote:

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> it seems clear from the responses on here that the CPZ

> won't be implemented. But we'll see.....

I lived in Battersea when the Clapham Junction CPZ was extended to cover the estate east of Latchmere Road. The council put a survey through the door. I can't remember the exact numbers but it was c. 52/48 in favour, but on a response rate of only about 20%

If there's the flimsiest chance to put it in, that CPZ will be going in.

[milk76]

CPZ long overdue.

Yes vote here.

[atria]

Widdy - I have not used the forum before and as consultation in progress, I thought important to represent my view. This forum does not represent all of East Dulwich and I have not had time until now to share.

I have just knocked on 7 houses with 5 support and 2 object. I intend to speak to rest of neighbours tonight as sure results mixed but this is not a silent few.

[Bobby P]

People in the affected roads who are voting for a CPZ: Please be aware that it will NOT help your parking problem, based on the very valid experience of those who have lived in roads which have been converted to CPZ while they lived there. In such cases (mine included) the parking situation was every bit the same as before the CPZ was introduced (for all the reasons stated owing to reductions of space, number of vehicles per household).

In Camden, where it happened to me, we STILL had to drive around several neighbouring roads to park our cars. The only difference (setting aside the quite substantial cost to each resident) was that if we parked several roads away when the CPZ came into force, we had to walk over to that road every day to check that the bay hadn't been suspended and our car towed by the Council. We never worried about that when the roads were all free parking, and believe me, it added plenty of stress to living in the area (have you tried getting you car back from a pound? No fun at all, and they ALWAYS insist you pay hundreds up front and challenge later).

So please do think hard about whether you want this. It's not selfish to point out the truth that this is primarily a tax, with very little benefit the people it's supposed to help. I hesitate to use the terms 'turkeys' and 'Christmas', because it would be insulting. But if I were uncertain about it, I would heed some of the "experts" who have had the unpleasant experience of living under CPZ regimes and enforcement before.

[atria]

Based on my experience in Borough of Bexley the CPZ absolutely addressed parking problems due to commuters. So I would say does work and without any alternative to our problem not sure what else can be done.

[peterstorm1985]

atria Wrote:

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> I live on Derwent Grove and FULLY support this

> long overdue CPZ proposal. I have completed my

> support of the survey along with several other

> residents on Derwent Grove. The reasons are that

> from Monday to Friday 7am to 7pm it is impossible

> to park on our road. This is due to commuter

> parking for East Dulwich station and the situation

> is untenable. My wife will often have to double

> park to unload shopping or circle streets for up

> to 20 minutes or more for a space. My parents no

> longer visit their grandchildren during week as no

> space available to transfer my dad who cannot walk

> far. A two hour limit to address commuter parking

> during Monday to Friday is all that is required.

> This will solve problem for those with younger

> families or based at home during week. If you

> commute by train Monday to Friday I suspect not a

> problem but do appreciate others when considering

> proposal.

What I don't understand about this is that if you have a young family at home and your car is at home for them then, unless you move your car at the time that commuters are arriving, you should leave a space that in theory you could come back to. Obviously, someone else must be filling the space while you are out. So, the question is who and how many of them are there? I have this suspicion that if the CPZ goes ahead, any residents using their car during the day will need to time their return from any trips out to be exactly in the 2 hour 'no-parking without a permit' time. That may not be as convenient as you may hope. And then the ?125 per year you pay (+visitors permits) won't seem such a bargain.

[Siduhe]

atria Wrote:

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> Based on my experience in Borough of Bexley the

> CPZ absolutely addressed parking problems due to

> commuters. So I would say does work and without

> any alternative to our problem not sure what else

> can be done.

atria, are you aware that Southwark has confirmed in writing to one of the posters on here that they have now formally assessed the impact of commuter parking in two key roads at 10% and 14% respectively? And that the CPZ proposal will lead to a reduced number of spaces in those roads?

To be clear, I live well outside the proposed CPZ zone, so I don't have a strong view about the proposal. What I do have a very strong view about is the clear implication in the Southwark consultation document that commuter parking is a massive issue which can be resolved by a CPZ when, at least to me, their own figures don't support it. If you lose 10% of the spaces to pay and display and business parking, where is the net benefit to residents on these figures?

[atria]

peterstorm1985 - The 2 hour parking will remove commuters who park all day taking up value spaces. I believe this will address the problems myself and several other residents face. That is all I am supporting.

[atria]

Siduhe - The planning proposal looks comprehensive to me and provides a variety of parking types e.g. shared, disabled, permit bays etc. We fully support local shops and already have bays allocated to non-residents. There will absolutely be a benefit to residents with this proposal.

[Siduhe]

atria,

I agree, the CPZ proposal does provide a comprehensive amount of parking types. My understanding from reading the consultation is that this will reduce the amount of available residents' parking (not clear by how much).

My point is a slightly different one, which is that Southwark itself says the amount of commuter parking is only 10-14% in the two roads they surveyed. If that's right (you clearly don't agree and may well have a more informed view that Southwark!) the CPZ will only lead to a reduction of 10-14% of parked cars on average. The amount of parking this frees up will be offset by the reduction of available parking for residents. So just on the figures, it seems questionable to me whether this CPZ is really going to deliver what residents want.

What I disagree with is whether the facts have been made available to everyone who needs to be consulted in a neutral way - the 10%-14% assessment figures for example don't appear anywhere on the consultation and there is no explanation of how much parking will be lost to residents under these plans. I can absolutely accept that some residents want a CPZ.

[atria]

Thanks Siduhe. I reckon might be closer to 20% but not sure any statistics can be completely relied upon (did Southwark have a swat team following each person to see if went to station). I see your point here but from proposal don't see any offset or loss of parking as we can't park today. Even 10-14% in Derwent Grove would be a benefit to us and suspect higher.

[Loz]

atria Wrote:

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> Thanks Siduhe. I reckon might be closer to 20% but not sure any statistics can be completely relied

> upon (did Southwark have a swat team following each person to see if went to station). I see your

> point here but from proposal don't see any offset or loss of parking as we can't park today. Even

> 10-14% in Derwent Grove would be a benefit to us and suspect higher.

But atria, you won't see those 10-14% returned to you for your benefit. CPZs reduce the amount of parking available as they paint a *lot* of yellow lines in places where you now park. Expect zero change in the parking situation, except you will now be paying ?125 year to not be able to park.

And once these things are implemented they are damn near impossible to get removed.

[atria]

Looking at the plans for Derwent Grove I don't see any additional yellow lines. I am also challenging 10-14% reduction and am currently clarifying documentation provided on this matter. I certainly don't want to waste money or not see our situation being addressed.

[gmackenney]

The 10-14% figures probably originated from an earlier post from me relating to two streets on the CPZ which I specifically enquired about directly with the council - Ondine (10%) and East Dulwich Road (14%). Happy to forward on documentation to those who want it. Figures for the streets closer to the station may well be higher.

I've previously asked the councillors on this thread to provide greater transparency into the figures so we can properly assess the impact. So far they've not been forthcoming. In addition, the council really should be providing transparency into the reduction in spaces expected to be available to residents. Certain streets may fare better than others in this respect.

The fact is parking is a challenge in a far wider area than the CPZ would cover. We live in the inner city - the choice to live here has both upsides and downsides. The concern of many in the ring outside the CPZ is that the problems it is seeking to solve are unlikely to provide enough of a benefit to justify the misery it heaps on those just outside it. Yes, one could call that attitude selfish, but the reverse perspective is also similarly selfish. The other fear is that the CPZ will keep growing as it simply spreads the parking problem.

But like others on this thread I want to see the data to see if it supports the hypothesis that this CPZ is going to help, rather than relying on subjectivity or the frankly inadequate consultation document. I make no secret of the fact that I'm against, but this is more a product of the lack of transparency and underhand way the council has behaved so far.