E.D.Station controlled parking zone

[Bobby P]

Yes, Chevalier, the same happened to me (and my neighbours) several times under my former station-proxy CPZ.

My experience was usually when the car was parked three roads away (parking not having improved at all after the CPZ was introduced) and I mistakenly didn't go and check on it for a couple of days, or (worse sin, still) dared to have a week's holiday abroad, leaving my newly-permitted car on the street, in which time the bay had been "suspended".

Pound, massive fine, letter-writing epic, appeal, eventual refund. Great fun.

I really fail to see how anyone in their right mind can want this.

[fazer71]

More flawed Logic ?a badly managed CPZ = do not to have a CPZ?

If the rules when CPZ are implemented said that incompetent management meant that the victims would be given 5 years fee free parking then management (Southwark parking) would make sure they were correctly removing cars. As it is there?s no accountability or financial cost to the council for any mistakes they make it?s the victim who pays in time stress and cash.

If it?s well implemented and well managed then the problems above would not happen.

Get the balance right (make it cost Southwark if they manage it badly) and it?ll work.

This is why the focus needs to be on the details of the CPZ so cost blame and errors are managed fairly with balance for the benefit of residents.

[James Barber]

Hi buddug,

My family have a car. We avoid using it as much as possible but yes we own a car. My children are not quite old enough to have the sdame stamina for wlaking etc as me.

I was responding to the assertion that cars are a necessity. Plenty of people locally find they are not. Whether this is an economic choice or other factor. A car for most costs around 1/2 to 1 working days work per week.

[Senor Chevalier]

So Fazer, given there is nothing at all to suggest that the proposed CPZ will be in any way different in terms of management and enforcement from any that have gone before, are we to understand you are in the no campaign for this particular campaign, but want to also campaign for a redesigned CPZ that will be different from all others to be implemented? I can understand trying to piggy back off the current consultation to pioneer a new model given the topic is on the table, but there is a danger that the nuance of your argument is missed allowing your support for the new improved CPZ concept to be misconstrued as support for the proposal (which it is not).

How about we defeat this (same old) CPZ proposal and then you can table a new motion for a "people's cooperative CPZ". This could perhaps be a free CPZ enforced by resident prefects a la citizen's arrest who would have an element of judgement and compassion whilst remaining beyond reproach etc etc you no doubt have this thought through in more detail...

[fazer71]

No not exactly.

I think all those who are in the NO camp should be fighting for the details in the proposed CPZ. (As it appears the details are their problem not the concept).

If that's not possible (which you imply) objectors should go with NO CPZ and consult with Southwark on the detail changes for another proposal.

I think the current CPZ proposal will work for the residents but IMO it?s too small an area (so will impact the fringes more than necessary) it should cover all roads or parts of a roads which are less than 4mins walk to the station.

A thought.

When Southwark gave Sainsbury?s planning permission for the supermarket why didn?t they insist on another floor either below or above ground for station parking as part of the permission? Poor planning decisions, locals could have campaigned for that? And we?d probably have got it too.

Zero foresight and poor decisions which result in future problems.

Often due to well meaning locals who just caue fudged decisions.

Are we are going to see the same thing with the Dulwich hospital plot. It could include station parking. Though I no idea of what is planned / proposed there.

[Chener Books]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A car for most costs around 1/2 to 1

> working days work per week.

?

John K

[jonsuissy]

James is right that people don't have to drive. In these circumstances it would have been possible, would it not, to cycle (I make usual assumptions of 2 fully working legs etc).

Lots of people cycle to work these days, the even govt encourage it by giving tax breaks.

Worth a try maybe?

buddug Wrote:

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> James wrote: "Cars a necessity? Half Southwark

> households exist without cars."

>

> So that's your agenda. You're anti car! Or do you

> have one?

> Whatever, it's a vacuous statement to make as it

> really depends on the individual - their

> individual needs, whether they can afford to run a

> car, obviously, and their work situation. I, for

> instance, like many workers, had to have one as I

> worked near London Bridge until 1.30am every night

> for a year. It would otherwise have involved a

> nasty walk in the dark on my own to the bus stop

> from the office, a terrifying wait at around

> 2.30am in Peckham bus station (!) and not getting

> home till nearly 3am (plus the walk at that time

> down my street). Night workers - and nurses, in

> particular, will work well into the night, much

> more than I had to, and so they need cars, both

> men and women. Or, James, do you want London to

> stop at midnight. Get real, for God's sake. We

> can't all live in a bubble like you do.

[buddug]

Jonsuissy wrote: "In these circumstances it would have been possible, would it not, to cycle"

Oh yes, of course, a woman cycling from London Bridge to East Dulwich at 2am every morning would be perfectly safe.

[jonsuissy]

Yes I agree, less traffic around at that time of night, wear something bright, plenty of lights. Should be OK

buddug Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Oh yes, of course, a woman cycling from London

> Bridge to East Dulwich at 2am every morning would

> be perfectly safe.

[buddug]

?!

[Bobby P]

I certainly cycle mostly, but have to have a car for work and transporting quite large amounts of equipment (or people) around. But personal transport preference is the bike. I still don't want to be penalised further for parking on my road.

[fazer71]

I spend more time walking and runing than I do driving.

But what's that got to do with the CPZ ...

[Chippy Minton]

Cars a necessity? Half Southwark households exist without cars.

What a ridiculous statement. There are plenty of people for whom a car is absolutely a necessity.

[jonsuissy]

I don't think James is being ridiculous.

I'm sure you are right for some people.

However most of us can get on buses, trains, bikes, own 2 feet etc etc.

Maybe Taxis for that Supermarket trip or get them to deliver, just like the old days!

For that to happen though local & national govt needs to invest more in sustainable transport.

Making roads less attractive to cars is a start - which brings us back to the cpz.

Just a thought.

Chippy Minton Wrote:

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> What a ridiculous statement. There are plenty of

> people for whom a car is absolutely a necessity.

[peckhamboy]

jonsuissy Wrote:

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> Making roads less attractive to cars is a start -

> which brings us back to the cpz.

> Just a thought.

Which is fine if there is a genuinely viable alternative - it's all a bit chicken and egg. Making roads less attractive to cars won't push people onto public transport if public transport doesn't or can't meet their needs - it just pisses people off. The alternative is to make public transport work first. The upside of living in ED is that it is far less overcrowded than some parts of London because it doesn't have a tube. The downside is that the train service is much less frequent, more expensive and (at weekends at least) very unreliable. And buses are neither reliable nor quick at any time. So more people feel a need to own a car to get about.

Edited to add: In fairness to James Barber, one alternative he has been promoting is the use of car clubs. They are not for everyone but may help stem the increase in cars a little. I doubt many people are selling existing cars and relying on clubs though - once you have a car you do become more dependent on it. If I didn't already own a car, however, having car club cars easily available may well persuade me not to buy.

[jonsuissy]

You are right of course peckhamboy.

I don't know how we go about making these changes as a society though.

I would just reiterate that many, many people can cycle to work. I started doing this about 2 years ago and it is very easy once you get some confidence (and have somewhere to shower, store bike etc).

Doing more to get people onto bikes might be a cheaper way of doing it.

Apologies by the way as I'm sure reformed cyclists are as bad as reformed smokers!!

[peckhamboy]

Planning permissions can certainly help on this though - the council could impose any number of conditions on developers that would help to avoid worsening the problem, which would be a start. Such as requiring off-street parking to be provided (including dedicated car club bays perhaps, so that the wider community actually benefits), even requiring a covenant in the freehold that the owner won't own a car (although that one would be difficult to enforce).

Bikes might be a partial solution but they're not perfect - not ideal for very small kids, for starters (I certainly wouldn't consider sticking an under-two on the back of a bike in London), and no use if you have heavy loads or need to travel longer distances (unless public transport is available).

[Loz]

peckhamboy Wrote:

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> Planning permissions can certainly help on this

> though - the council could impose any number of

> conditions on developers that would help to avoid

> worsening the problem, which would be a start.

> Such as requiring off-street parking to be

> provided (including dedicated car club bays

> perhaps, so that the wider community actually

> benefits), even requiring a covenant in the

> freehold that the owner won't own a car (although

> that one would be difficult to enforce).

I believe (and James can correct me if I am wrong) that if anything, developers are dissuaded from providing too many car parking spaces in the guise of 'promoting sustainable transport options'.

[intexasatthe moment]

Yes I agree, less traffic around at that time of night, wear something bright, plenty of lights. Should be OK

I agree - much safer than hanging around deserted bus stops and train stations at that time of night .

[fredricketts]

Why should the Car club drivers always have a place to park? they paying the council for the car club parking spaces ! Ah yes, Money making venture again.

And as for more houses and people in Dulwich, Most of the people I know in East Dulwich, and I have been here since 1963, do not want Dulwich turned into a Town or a metropolis , and that is what the Council is trying and succeeding in doing.

This is from a Politian mouth: ?The predictions for east Dulwich are an extra 6,000 people on top of the current 33,000. God knows where they'll all go. Also all the political parties are avoiding the population problem of a predicted extra 1 million people living in London within the next 10 years needing an extra 500,000 homes. This prediction is mostly from immigration of other Europeans.

[Chippy Minton]

jonsuissy - James Barber contradicts himself. He says 'We avoid using it as much as possible but yes we own a car.' therefore admitting sometimes it is not possible to avoid using a car i.e. it is a necessity!

He also notes his kids are old enough to walk places he wants to walk to now - well that's great for him, but there's a hell of a lot of people in East Dulwich with younger kids for which that's not an option.

Also, not to mention all the people that already posted on here about the necessity for them to have a car for work etc.

BTW, having a car and having a bike aren't mutually exclusive - I know loads of people that have both and will cycle whenever they can, but will say having a car is still a necessity.

[peterstorm1985]

fredricketts Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is from a Politian mouth: ?The predictions

> for east Dulwich are an extra 6,000 people on top

> of the current 33,000. God knows where they'll all

> go. Also all the political parties are avoiding

> the population problem of a predicted extra 1

> million people living in London within the next 10

> years needing an extra 500,000 homes. This

> prediction is mostly from immigration of other

> Europeans.

Actually Fred, if you look around you, you'll see that East Dulwich residents are doing an awful lot of breeding, and have been doing so for some time, which may explain a lot of the increase. Add to that the excellent medical facilities in the area and a reluctance of the older generation to retire to the seaside (as they might once have done) and it's going to get ever so crowded round here even if not one 'immigrant' moves here.

[fredricketts]

Actually Fred, if you look around you, you'll see that East Dulwich residents are doing an awful lot of breeding, and have been doing so for some time, which may explain a lot of the increase. Add to that the excellent medical facilities in the area and a reluctance of the older generation to retire to the seaside (as they might once have done) and it's going to get ever so crowded round here even if not one 'immigrant' moves here.

Thats the problem overcrowing by who ever.

[fazer71]

If this was America we wouldn't be piddling around like this.

It's pathetic.

I quote "We shouldn't have cars, we should all cycle, and we should all take the train or the bus or walk or crawl on all fours? ?I don?t want a CPZ cos I?d have nowhere to park there?d be less parking bla bla bla??

Where are the British brains the positive workmanlike approach the positivity to build towards a better future?

We lost it after the Victorian era and now no one knows what to do or how to do it or roughly what it should cost. Did all the brains die the the two WW?s?

If the Victorians were organising this shower, we?d have a proper solution.

We?re an embarrassment?

[Chippy Minton]

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!