E.D.Station controlled parking zone

[Chener Books]

My down to earth comment about the marginal cost of consulting the streets immediately outside the proposed CPZ got buried under theorectical posturing.

Why was Matham Grove not consulted?

Because it would cost to much.

How much would it cost to consult 34 houses, say 68 households, in Matham Grove?

No more than ?136.

Why was Matham Grove not consulted?

Because you're not worth it.

John K

[gsirett]

Chener Books Wrote:

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> My down to earth comment about the marginal cost

> of consulting the streets immediately outside the

> proposed CPZ got buried under theorectical

> posturing.

>

> Why was Matham Grove not consulted?

>

> Because it would cost to much.

>

> How much would it cost to consult 34 houses, say

> 68 households, in Matham Grove?

>

> No more than ?136.

>

> Why was Matham Grove not consulted?

>

> Because you're not worth it.

>

> John K

What gets me, is that Southwark must have spent a small fortune on designing,printing & distributing the glossy booklets to every houselhold in the proposed CPZ but they couldn't muster any way of letting anybody else in the community know?

Yes,yes, I know they'll say "it's on our website" - but, sorry, www.southwark.gov.uk isn't in my top 10 sites.

Yes,yes, they say "we put notices up on lamppsosts in the area" ...... has anybody actually seen these?: they're tiny: I had to actually go looking for them.

plus, once it became apparent that there was a lot of strong public feeling about this, they refused to extend the consultation by a couple of weeks (at the suggestion of a local councillor)

So, I put it to Southwark that the limited communication wasn't about cost saving......it was part of a cynical descion to only consult with a sub-set of the community that they thought would be more in favour of this flawed scheme; a scheme that will raise much revenue and allow CPZ's to be spread into the rest of the area

[fredricketts]

I think it is quite obvious by now that Southwark Council is not listening to the residents of Dulwich, and that they have their own agenda like always.

I think that we all should write to Tessa Jowell, about the situation, and have her try and earn the money she gets for being our MP. I will be writing this evening, her email address is: [email protected]

[mastershake]

i think it is quite obvious by now that people who oppose the CPZ seem to think that he who shouts loudest on teh internets = always in the right.

[Loz]

I'm sorry, mastershake, but as someone who has posted quite a few points against the CPZ, when exactly have I been 'shouting'? I'd like to think I have made a calm, reasoned argument and not shouted in the least.

[katie1997]

You have been calm and reasonable in putting your points across Loz. The only 'shoutiness' I can see on this thread comes from someone with a clear anti-car agenda with myopic vision who fails to see that those not in or near the CPZ are concerned about its impact on their local area and how it will affect smaller, independent businesses too. That and the dishonest, irresponsible and wholly flawed 'consultation'.

Conflating the CPZ argument with 'green' issues is nonsense too. Its all about the money.

[garnwba]

why are so mnay of you who are against the CPZ afraid to just write:

"I don't want it because it will prob mean that i can't park my own car outside my own house"

Instead of hiding behind ridiculous statements like "it's not good for the community", "it will hurt local trade"

- Anyone got any evidence of trade impact... Nope

- Anyone got any evidence of impact on the community - Nope

You're all just NIMBY - don't be ashamed of it, man up people and admit it

[Jeremy]

NIMBY is a ridiculous accusation... it's one of those situations where people absolutely should have a say with what happens in their neighbourhood.

[BrandNewGuy]

... and those in the proposed CPZ area could also be accused of being NIMBY for not wanting commuters to park in 'their back yard'. But as Jeremy says, it's an absurd and unhelpful accusation and one designed to shut down discussion. By and large I think this thread has been informative and constructive - which is more than can be said for the council's approach to the issue.

[katie1997]

garnwba Wrote:

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> why are so mnay of you who are against the CPZ

> afraid to just write:

> "I don't want it because it will prob mean that i

> can't park my own car outside my own house"

garnwba, are you assuming that everyone who is against the CPZ owns a car? Its not just about people being able to park (and pay) outside their house.

A number of people have acknowledged that there is a problem in the proposed area and would have liked to have been consulted in a fair manner rather than finding out about the CPZ inadvertently through the forum.

I personally don't see how the CPZ could have anything but a detrimental effect on local businesses which I'd hate to see disappear.

> Instead of hiding behind ridiculous statements

> like "it's not good for the community", "it will

> hurt local trade"

> - Anyone got any evidence of trade impact... Nope

> - Anyone got any evidence of impact on the

> community - Nope

If anyone should be in possession of evidence of those things mentioned above, it should be the people who are so keen to impose this on the local community in the first place.

> You're all just NIMBY - don't be ashamed of it,

> man up people and admit it

[garnwba]

Katie1997 "I personally don't see how the CPZ could have anything but a detrimental effect on local businesses which I'd hate to see disappear"

You think that a few roads near the station which prevent parking between 12-2 on a week day ONLY is going to bring down Lordship Lane?

Herne Hill unless i am mistaken has not become a ghost town since the introduction of the CPZ

[katie1997]

garnwba Wrote:

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> Katie1997 "I personally don't see how the CPZ

> could have anything but a detrimental effect on

> local businesses which I'd hate to see disappear"

>

> You think that a few roads near the station which

> prevent parking between 12-2 on a week day ONLY is

> going to bring down Lordship Lane?

I don't know. But I might as well consult my Magic 8 ball for the answers 'Ask me later' than expect a fair consultation and honesty from Southwark on the matter.

[milk76]

I just can't get past this fundamental point.

You ask the people who would have the lines in front of their houses if they would like them.

Job done.

[first mate]

garnbwa,

The situation in Herne Hill is not a useful model. There is plenty of opposition and plenty who are not happy. This despite the fact that many more house in HH probably have enough room for offstreet parking.

[mastershake]

well the situation in HH is pretty instructive - residents requested a CPZ and it was implemented as HH was overrun with commuters parking their cars. notwithstanding that a lot of houses in HH have ofstreet parking, there was a problem and the council tried to solve it.

they didn't get it right at first by having it running all day - so now it only runs for 2 hours. meaning businesses aren't really hit all that much, and meaning commuters are stopped from clogging up the roads.

yes, a few people are likely to still oppose it. but it is working pretty well.

just as a note, to counter yet another poor quality attempt by soemone to rubbish the idea that commuters clog up the streets near east dulwich - it's not a matter of economics but of convenience. If you live, say, near Dulwich L:ibrary and need to get to the station, and you have a car, it's a no-brainer - hop in, park near the station, saving yourself a 20 minute walk / crowded bus ride. plus you might be able to drop the kids at school on the way.

[Loz]

milk76 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I just can't get past this fundamental point.

>

> You ask the people who would have the lines in

> front of their houses if they would like them.

>

> Job done.

If only it was so easy. Unfortunately in ED there is not just one space per dwelling available. Once you take into account houses without parking in front, flats/multiple occupancy and local businesses then you are trying to fit 16 eggs into a carton.

Ask all the people with the space if they would like a personal car space reserved for them and them alone in front of their house and you would get an overwhelming 'yes'. And a huge big parking problem would follow once everyone else realised the implications of this (otherwise it would have been done years ago). That's why you need to consult more widely.

[Loz]

mastershake Wrote:

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> well the situation in HH is pretty instructive - residents requested a CPZ and it was implemented

> as HH was overrun with commuters parking their cars. notwithstanding that a lot of houses in HH

> have ofstreet parking, there was a problem and the council tried to solve it.

>

> they didn't get it right at first by having it running all day - so now it only runs for 2 hours.

> meaning businesses aren't really hit all that much, and meaning commuters are stopped from

> clogging up the roads.

And your source for this information? It seems wildly at odds with many other people's experiences.

> yes, a few people are likely to still oppose it. but it is working pretty well.

>

> just as a note, to counter yet another poor quality attempt by soemone to rubbish the idea

> that commuters clog up the streets near east dulwich - it's not a matter of economics but of

> convenience. If you live, say, near Dulwich L:ibrary and need to get to the station, and you

> have a car, it's a no-brainer - hop in, park near the station, saving yourself a 20 minute walk /

> crowded bus ride. plus you might be able to drop the kids at school on the way.

Actually, I think it's a no-brainer to take the bus - especially as it is apparently very difficult to find a car space near the station! Plus it's free if you have a travelcard. Why on earth would you want to drive? Especially with two bus routes taking you direct.

[garnwba]

firstmate... that may be true but what is 100% certain is that thre isn't a huge uproar of people demanding the removal of the scheme because it hasn't worked in HH

Which is what a number of people on this thread have predicted would happen here "be careful what you wish for"

"there will be no turning back...." "the end of the world is nigh" etc type of comments.

On Melbourne grove at the moment we have parking restriction signs up (as the council haven't removed them yet despite the parking restrictions having ended ages ago) - this has meant that commuters have not parked on the street whilst us canny residents in the know have... parking has been blissful, easy and perhaps a real insight into what living in a CPZ would be like.

[first mate]

Mastershake,

What is your evidence that the scheme in HH is working pretty well? If it was working well why would there be such opposition to it?- see my earlier posts.

On another note, and not to you MS, what happens, in the case of a CPZ if building work is underway- say you need to hire a skip or take delivery of large building materials that won't fit into your front 'garden'?

[garnwba]

when i lived in Clapham CPZ you just called Lambeth Council and got permission - no problemo

[first mate]

But, would a large skip fit in the spaces proposed and if it does not, how does that work?

[mikeb]

No-one can credibly argue that the consultation is satisfactory, even if you think it should be limited to just the streets that are proposed to be in the zone (which I think is mistaken):

* no evidence for the assertions that the CPZ will make parking easier within the zone - evidence unearthed since then actually suggests it will reduce spaces below the number of residents

* biased in its presentation of the CPZ as perfect and no balanced presentation of problems for those within the zone (let alone those outside). I don't recognise this from my experiences of living within CPZs

* incomplete in its explanation of costs and use of proceeds - why ?125? are the permits gilt-edged?

* no explanation for the shape of the zone - why were Oglander / Ondine etc really excluded?

* limited publication of the consultation - it seems to have passed by a number of residents within the zone

Much as I'm enjoying this thread, it is no subsitute for a properly consulted and implemented attempt to resolve parking problems that some (and only some) believe exist.

This is not a trial proposal. There is zero realistic chance of a CPZ ever being reversed. It will spread to a wider zone. It will not solve the underlying issue (too many residents with too many cars) which is getting worse each year.

If Southwark want to permanently change the nature of our area (within and outside the propsoed CPZ) with more regulation and cost then they should produce the evidence that what they're proposing will actually make a positive difference and then consult amongst affected parties. And yes Huguenot, I would be interested to know whether a CPZ has made the lives of HH residents better, although I would be more interested in more definitive evidence for ED of commuter parking (who? from where? why? how often? how long?) and basic data on spaces before and after.

MikeB

[Bobby P]

> On Melbourne grove at the moment we have parking

> restriction signs up (as the council haven't

> removed them yet despite the parking restrictions

> having ended ages ago) - this has meant that

> commuters have not parked on the street whilst us

> canny residents in the know have... parking has

> been blissful, easy and perhaps a real insight

> into what living in a CPZ would be like.

...yes, thereby clogging up Derwent, Elsie etc. more than usual. It has a knock on effect, you see, which is why a CPZ won't help - unless it incorporates the whole of ED. And I personally think that would be a great shame.

[bugsbgone]

See the problem is (as a Derwent Gr resident and car owner) that even if Melborne is 'out' at the moment - it is business as usual on my street.. there is no particular pattern but I have been monitoring it since this cpz thread started, and there can be spaces along my street at ALL PARTS of the working day, it does happen - more often that not in fact..

Are you mad you pro cpzs's, are you? Without really knowing the true outcome? In my mind you are all locked and blinkered and a wee bit gung ho..

'Can't get a space in the daytime' Nonsense. Proper nonsense - and here I am right in the 'epicentre' and I can still get a space - Melborne Grove completely restricted to the 'unknowing'.

You drive me mad, the lot of you.

Yours,

Derwent Grove resident.

[Chener Books]

Here is another creep.