Advice re consumer problem

[Sue]

A few weeks back I bought some extraordinarily expensive diffuser sticks, made by True Grace. It was a birthday present to myself. I did (obviously) smell the display sticks before I bought them.

On the box, it says "We make careful and natural choices of the finest ingredients to ensure both sustainability and excellence."

On a notice by a display (not in the shop I bought them from) it says ".... therapeutic home fragrance products - all made from carefully-selected and sustainable natural ingredients ......"

(Bold font is mine)

When I started using these sticks, the smell made me feel ill :(

I couldn't find a list of the ingredients online anywhere, so I emailed the company, who replied to say "Our products are made with essential oils."

I then emailed back to say I use essential oils a lot but that the diffuser was making me feel ill, so did it also have some synthetic scent or non-natural ingredient in it?

Surprise surprise I had no reply. I chased a couple of weeks later - still no reply. So I phoned them.

They have refused to tell me exactly what is in the diffuser. They sent me a MSDS sheet, which just says that the chemical identity is "Reeds Sacristy." (Sacristy is the name of the particular fragrance.)

When I pointed out that this wasn't terribly helpful, they emailed to say ..."the diffusers consist 75-85% of a carrier oil and 15-25% of fragrance, which is made from a mixture of essential oils and synthetic fragrance......the carrier oil is natural and I am assuming this is why my colleague told you that the diffuser was made from essential oils...." (!!!!!)

So, to come to the point, are they selling these "natural" products under false pretences?

Do I have any case for getting my money back from the shop I bought them from?

I go out of my way to avoid synthetic perfume, because just walking through a department store perfume section makes me feel ill :( and there is no way I would have bought these if I had thought they weren't completely natural :(

ETA: At the very least, it seems to me that the wording they use is misleading.

[diable rouge]

It's all in the wording. From what you say they contain a natural ingredient i.e. the carrier oil, but as they didn't say the ingredients are 100% natural, I don't think you have a case...

[IlonaM]

See what Trading Standards say?

[malumbu]

Sale of Good Act, reverse burden of proof for the first six months ie they have to prove that the product was not faulty. If you feel ill it is faulty. Also covers describing things accurately but probably best for going for the faulty argument. End of. You can Google the exact wording of the Regs. (Another good thing from the EU eh?).

You've also got distant selling regs too.

Trading Standards do not take enquiries anymore so you will be redirected to CAB, who will tell you similar to me.

Ultimately take them to court. But expect a stiff letter will do. I occasionally also post this as this can often have better results.

Despite how I may come across I don't spend all my time complaining, but get peed of by retailers for being ignorant of consumer rights.

[Sue]

Thanks Malumbu. I will look up the Sale of Goods Act.

My understanding was that the retailer rather than the manufacturer has to deal with it in the first instance, has that changed?

However, I'm not sure a product can be described as faulty just because I felt ill. True Grace sent me this MSDS sheet which says it does not cause irritation. I pointed out that I had no irritation, but that synthetic perfume makes me feel ill.

However I have never had any tests or anything to identify exactly what is causing me to feel ill (I just avoid synthetic perfume), and in any case as True Grace won't tell me what's in it, even if I had had it probably wouldn't help.

I wouldn't take them to court, too much hassle for a relatively small amount of money (fifty pounds. I can't believe I spent fifty pounds on a few sticks and a small bottle of liquid!)

ETA: It wasn't distant selling. I bought it from a store (so that I could smell it before I bought it) so I'm not covered by any law relating to that.

[ianr]

> I will look up the Sale of Goods Act.

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 would be more appropriate.

I think you're going to have to go to Wiltshire, to see what the Wardour Chapel really smells of. https://www.therecollectiononline.com/a-52052112/true-grace/true-grace-manor-scented-reeds-sacristy-250ml/ )

[malumbu]

In deed, the Consumer Rights Act takes the relevant parts of SOGA and consolidates them nicely with other aspects of consumer law such as unfair contracts and competition law. It now also defines a reasonable time to inspect goods - 30 days, which before was rather subjective. The retailer is responsible (which always annoys me where they blame the manufacturer).

Don't use a credit card but there are also advantages here as you have extra protection due to the contract with the card provider.

It is much nicer when the retailer simply refunds you, and therefore there is good will and this also helps with word of mouth recommendations. Main issue I have had is with Dixons/Currys, there are numerous other good companies out there eg John Lewis Partnership and Richer Sounds. This is my personal experience.

[Robert Poste's Child]

It sounds like it wasn't honestly represented and/or the ingredient list was incomplete. The way they held off answering suggests they know that.

There does seem to be a loophole around that kind of thing though: look at all the beauty products, particularly hair serums, that are branded as 'Argan oil' but when you look closely the first four ingredients are silicones and there's less than 5% argan.

On a similar note, I avoid clothes labelled 'cotton-rich' or 'wool-rich' as it means that's not the main thing it's made of.

[Siduhe]

Looking at the sales materials quoted above, there is nothing that says "all natural ingredients" - indeed the wording seems quite carefully drafted to give an impression that only natural ingredients are used, without actually saying that in terms.

So you'd have to try and build an argument/case based on section 11 of the CRA, based on the clear impression given by the marketing materials. That would have been really difficult to do under the old patchwork of consumer legislation, but there should be a little bit more flexibility under the CRA (although still not the easiest). In particular you could argue that the heavy emphasis on the use of natural ingredients and the lack of reference to any other kind of ingredients was a sufficient description that any use of synthetic ingredients was a deviation from description within the scope of 11(1) of the CRA.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/11/enacted

editing for spelling

[niall]

*write them a letter stating that you are the human man/woman xxxxx from the family xxxxxxxx,

informing them that their implied rights of access are withdrawn and that you are not driving

but travelling. then ask them if they are acting under their oath and demand a signature

in wet ink from the magistrate.

once done, give them a photocopy of the magna carta and send them on their way.

*some of the above advice may not be entirely relevant let alone factual accurate, but is gathered from a variety of credible sources, namely YouTube videos.

[Mark]

In the first instance simply go back to the shop with the product and explain the situation and you'll probably find it'll be resolved there and then.

[Sue]

Mark Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In the first instance simply go back to the shop

> with the product and explain the situation and

> you'll probably find it'll be resolved there and

> then.

Yes, thanks, that's what I'm going to do.

Thanks everybody for your useful advice!

[Sue]

niall Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> *write them a letter stating that you are the

> human man/woman xxxxx from the family xxxxxxxx,

> informing them that their implied rights of access

> are withdrawn and that you are not driving

> but travelling. then ask them if they are acting

> under their oath and demand a signature

> in wet ink from the magistrate.

>

> once done, give them a photocopy of the magna

> carta and send them on their way.

>

>

> *some of the above advice may not be entirely

> relevant let alone factual accurate, but is

> gathered from a variety of credible sources,

> namely YouTube videos.

:)) :)) :))

[Sue]

ianr Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > I will look up the Sale of Goods Act.

>

> The Consumer Rights Act 2015 would be more

> appropriate.

>

> I think you're going to have to go to Wiltshire,

> to see what the Wardour Chapel really smells of.

> https://www.therecollectiononline.com/a-52052112/t

> rue-grace/true-grace-manor-scented-reeds-sacristy-

> 250ml/ )

:))

Thanks for that link, ianr, I don't even recall seeing those top/middle/base notes on the True Grace website (all of which appear to be essential oils ......)

[JohnL]

Try asking them on twitter

and facebook

https://www.facebook.com/truegraceuk/

It just sometimes gets a better reply - no idea why :)

[Inbound]

Best advice posted! Naming and shaming on social media certainly provokes a really good response as they want to be seen doing the right thing and avoid being lampooned

[Sue]

Yes but as I hadn't actually bought direct from True Grace, I'm not sure that would have the desired effect except to thoroughly piss them off.

I have however just been down that route with BT .....

[Robert Poste's Child]

You do realise this isn't the Citizens Advice Bureau, Niall?

ETA this post made sense before Niall's post was deleted.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Sue, I just googled: tell me you didn't pay ?50 for a room diffuser...

[NewWave]

If You only use essential oils usually (I too find that synthetic scents make me feel almost nauseous) My advice is to in future go to Niels Yard (theres a branch in Borough market)I get essential oils from there and either put them in one of the diffusers that they sell or on a lightbulb ring.

Ive never liked the reed thing-Ive never found one that gives a pure enough aroma

[KidKruger]

Happy (belated) birthday Sue xx

[Sue]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> Sue, I just googled: tell me you didn't pay ?50

> for a room diffuser...

I was seduced by the attractive packaging and the fact that it was in a very upmarket shop (alright I'll admit it, it was Heal's :)) They had a sale on, but this one wasn't in the sale).

It was coming up to my birthday and I had an urge to treat myself to something.

Any other time, I probably would have looked and passed by :(

ETA: I realise that to many ED residents Heal's probably isn't very upmarket, but it feels like it to me :))

[Sue]

NewWave Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If You only use essential oils usually (I too find

> that synthetic scents make me feel almost

> nauseous) My advice is to in future go to Niels

> Yard (theres a branch in Borough market)I get

> essential oils from there and either put them in

> one of the diffusers that they sell or on a

> lightbulb ring.

> Ive never liked the reed thing-Ive never found one

> that gives a pure enough aroma

I do sometimes buy oils from Neals Yard, usually the Covent Garden branch, but mostly I get them wholesale every few years from Amphora, including lavender oil in bulk. They probably aren't as high quality in some cases, but they are very much cheaper :)

I have had one of their electric diffusers for some years, but I find it annoying to have to keep topping up the water (first world problems). Also you can only use them where there is a socket to plug them into, which isn't always convenient.

I fairly recently discovered the Body Source diffusers, which I find more aesthetically pleasing, plus they have a timer so you can set them to turn off after a certain time (eg if you are going to sleep). But these also have the same disadvantages as the Neal's Yard ones. However they are cheaper. I have them in different rooms using different oils, eg for working, relaxing, whatever.

Having talked to a lovely woman who runs a stall in North Cross Road selling sticks which genuinely do only use essential oils (which I sadly noticed too late), I did a bit of googling and found you can get all the stuff online to make your own. So in future I am going to do that, and add my own oils. I will probably need to experiment a bit :)

[Sue]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Happy (belated) birthday Sue xx

Thanks KK, it was a while ago now!

[Robert Poste's Child]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Sue, I just googled: tell me you didn't pay ?50

> > for a room diffuser...

>

>

> I was seduced by the attractive packaging and the

> fact that it was in a very upmarket shop (alright

> I'll admit it, it was Heal's :)) They had a sale

> on, but this one wasn't in the sale).

>

> It was coming up to my birthday and I had an urge

> to treat myself to something.

>

> Any other time, I probably would have looked and

> passed by :(

>

> ETA: I realise that to many ED residents Heal's

> probably isn't very upmarket, but it feels like it

> to me :))

To me, too, Sue (I'm a Lidl fan and out of the habit of buying luxury stuff). After seeing the price I felt a bit faint myself!