What happened to the possible extension of the 63 bus?

[Penguin68]

Renata

We are being forecast (sort-of) snow at the moment - there's no way the 63 would make it up the hill in those conditions with passengers (sometimes they can't even make it on the flat in the Rye where it gets exposed). I know that's only about 3 days every couple of years (or less) but if there is snow this weekend we will see the standard ED TfL - 'goodness, I had no idea there were hills in London' debacle.

Until we have better powered (and better) buses much of possible routes will be off-limits - not just in snow and ice but in any inclement weather.

[the-e-dealer]

Buses cant get up Dog Kennel Hill during heavy snow yet we have the route the rest of the year.

[simonethebeaver]

Katrusja, I am not really sure what I think of the 63 proposals but I do think your post is really thoughtful and useful. Thank you.

Penguin, the 63 often stops at the Rye when it snows because it can't turn in its usual place and there are no other obvious turning places between the Rye and there. It's not because of the hill.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Penguin and Simone,

the P12 doesn't run past Peckham Rye either in snow, so I think the hill is an issue. We only get snow very occasionally, so I don't think it would be a big problem in general.

Renata

[simonethebeaver]

I've been told by drivers that this is the reason for terminating there.

[Medley]

Don't think the snow point is valid - the existing turnaround has frequently been ignored by gritters, meaning the buses can't be turned and the route being curtailed at Peckham Rye, where they can turn back.

Katuja's post was excellent, I must say. I'm not sure it is a goer, after reading that thought-through piece from someone making this journey daily for years.

Could the P12 route be tweaked to cover the gap? Albeit that wouldn't connect up in the same way - you'd need to change bus.

[TonyQuinn]

Snow debate is a diversion.....the points raised by Katrusja about the size of the road, the narrowness of the pavements, the implications on parking and the rhythm of this little corner of London and its oommunity are the reasons why this nonsensical proposal to extend the 63 has to be binned immediately.

[the-e-dealer]

What is there's a hurricane ? Or night falls for months due to a volcano?

[Bic Basher]

Also in agreement for extending the 63 to at least connect with the P12 for those who wish to continue to HOP.

However the ideal solution would be for a new single decker route to connect the whole of Forest Hill Road with Honor Oak Park station and Brockley Rise.

Otherwise there's still the 16 buses per hour to Peckham Rye which connect with the Overground.

[Katrusja]

There are some really valid and interesting points being made here and it's good to see Renata engaging with them. I definitely don't think we need to give up on the idea of getting some sort of integrated transport solution that will get us the connection over the hill that there is quite clearly so much support for. I suppose what I was trying to do with my post was to suggest that we can actually strengthen any campaign by considering more readily the issues I and many others have tried to raise. As I mentioned in the original post and as henryb points out very clearly there are solutions to some of the points I made and also others may not necessarily be big issues in themselves.

What I wanted to suggest is that in approaching this and representing it to the Mayor/TFL as a small or easy extension and in putting it forward as the only solution that we may in fact be discrediting the campaign and damaging our chances of getting the solution we want. I felt the need to challenge the notion that it was enough to suggest that we have local support and that this being a cross-party initiative in our ward was going to lead to success in terms of the campaign. What I think we need much more so and which hoser rightly pointed to is cross-ward consultation (Renata, looking at the ward maps it would seem to me that Forest Hill ward and Crofton Park ward could be involved in this). Me'mate'Dave makes a brilliant point that if we think more broadly and can actually start to resolve other issues such as the congestion caused by the right turning traffic from HOP into Brockley Rise, we actually strengthen the campaign. It really crystalized for me the notion that if we talk to and consult with parties in and around HOP, we are surely much more likely to get a better idea of what can be achieved and what they would also like to see and be willing to support.

Apologies if this seems a little idealistic/naive/obvious (select your favourite!) and I hope I'm not simply suggesting things are already being done/taking place and I don't know about them. But it seems like across this thread some of us have made some very good points and come up with ideas for variations/other options (see Bic Basher's comment re: new route, perhaps there is an 'onward' journey from Brockley Rise that HOP residents would like to have for example). I'd like to see these taken forward and given greater consideration and I would certainly be willing to get involved in any further discussion or consultation. I seem to find all of this weirdly and geekishly fascinating! And on a serious note, I do genuinely support the idea of getting a Peckham Rye-Honor Oak Park bus connection and would like to see it realised.

[Bic Basher]

This new route could start and serve the spare bus stop at Dog Kennel Hill Sainsburys, which even had a extra bus shelter installed to accommodate the extension of Route 42 from Red Post Hill which was scrapped. This would give passengers the option of travelling to Sainsburys without changing for the 484 at the Kings on the Rye.

Route option could be DKH Sainsburys, DKH, East Dulwich Station, Goose Green, Kings on the Rye, Peckham Rye, Forest Hill Road, Honor Oak Park, Brockley Rise.

Another option could be to route it via Route P13 which would increase bus frequency along Whateley Road and most of Underhill Road, then run it along Dunstans Road, right into FH Road then as above.

[henryb]

Might as well include Denmark Hill Station in that route.

[henryb]

Great post Katrusja - fully in agreement.

[indiepanda]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Another option could be to route it via Route P13

> which would increase bus frequency along Whateley

> Road and most of Underhill Road, then run it along

> Dunstans Road, right into FH Road then as above.

Now that would be a great option, I'm 25 minutes walk from ED station and in theory the P13 would get me there quicker - but I never wait for it because it's so infrequent and doesn't run to time. I'd use HOP station more if I could get there too.

Katrusja - congratulations on the most well thought posts I've ever seen on the EDF, hope your thoughts get followed up by the counsellors.

[the-e-dealer]

I am told the Overground is pretty well rammed during the Rush once it gets to HOP.

[henryb]

Yeah a bit of a squeeze but I've always been able to get on.

[HopOne]

Hello from HOP resident and occasional ED forum lurker. Have been following this thread with interest and especially after Katrusja's excellent posts, have decided to dip my toe in...

Am a long-time advocate of extending the 63 bus route and can see the following benefits for HOP residents:

1. This would improve access to Peckham Rye park and East Dulwich. Though Cllr Hamvas's interim proposal has merit, am not sure it will fully gauge the demand as I think it will principally help only those less mobile. For instance, can get to East Dulwich by public transport but involves train to Forest Hill then bus - waiting for irregular P services is not going to get me to Moxon's and back in a lunch break. So, we end of driving to East Dulwich on a Saturday and, even with the struggle to find a parking space, this is quicker than any other way.

2. One Tree Hill splits historic Honor Oak in two to the detriment of both sides IMO. Having a connection over the hill would allow me to nip to the excellent Forest Hill Road supermarket more regularly for instance. Any more footfall generated for the HOP parade of shops can only be a good thing too.

3. There is undoubtedly a traffic congestion problem on Honor Oak Park itself. As others have pointed out, some more buses won't make this noticeably worse - more likely, this will encourage some to use the bus rather than car. Connecting train to bus is surely always a good idea.

4. There is a local parking problem. (Yes, I know we are not alone in this). There is a specific cause though which is park and ride use of HOP train station. The new Clapham Junction extension may have helped a little but a bus link would likely help a lot with this. Lewisham Council would like to bring in a CPZ 'solve' this but these commuters will still need to get to work and this will just shift the problem elsewhere. Also, congestion is made worse at the peak by some people waiting in the car to pickup from the station - sometimes by the zebra crossing which is a safety problem.

To respond to some other points and other observations:

* Forest Hill Road is indeed narrower up to Honor Oak Park but it strikes me that if the 63 turnaround area was no longer required then this could be mitigated somewhat by releasing extra road width for parking.

* the drop off issues at Francesca Cabrini are valid but I wonder how many parents would use a bus instead if it was available.

* I have heard that the reason the 63 never made it over the hill is historic. The original railway bridge at HOP was not rated sufficiently for the weight. Since the 'new' bridge doubled the crossing this has not been a consideration anymore. Certainly double deckers do go that way whenever there is a railway replacement service and do negotiate the turns.

* The stretch going down Honor Oak Park probably shouldn't have parking on the One Tree Hill side now. This would inconvenience some locals but from a safety standpoint seems sensible to me. It also seems more likely that vistors to church or temple are more likely to be parked there. Perhaps they could be accomodated on the slip road up to the church?

* I would expect some locals, on Honor Oak Park iself, to object to this on the basis of noise disturbance.

* The issue of the turnaround at Brockley Rise is probably the main problem in this proposal. I'm sure there must be an inventive answer to this. Large scale map and toy cars anyone?

* Me'mate'Dave is absolutely right about the turn left issue at the lights. There has been some discussion on this at se23.com and there was a proposal there to move some parking spaces to the other side of the road where there is a ghost bus stop. This would make sense as a proof of concept initiative - a traffic study would make sense here and if it worked it would have an immediate benefit for the wider area - car and bus routes.

* there is an expansion in capacity planned on the Overground.

My 2p with inflation. Hope you find it a useful alien contribution!

[Medley]

The Overground in the peaks at HOP is crowded, but that's a reason to have longer and more trains - not a reason for people not to have better links to it.

Southern trains are much longer in the peaks and less crowded (although never less than very busy of course).

The P13 solution seems to have attractive features to me: less need for improved infrastructure, fewer traffic problems, 63 turnaround facilities can remain as they are, improvements of options for those on some parts of P13 routes already.

What do people think is the essential end goal? A link between P Rye and HOP?

[TonyQuinn]

I think the concept of the essential end goal is important. Clearly now that the Overground has been extended to Clapham Junction via Surrey Quays and incorporates Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye, it would make a great deal of sense to connect those two stations with Honor Oak Park. But a double decker bus, whether 63 from Peckham Rye, is unacceptable. I think everyone accepts that a single decker bus would work. There must be some brains at Southwark and Lewisham Councils who could work something out. However, I have sought safety improvements on Forest Hill Road for a while now but the cycle of delivery looks the same. An assurance that improvements were coming, then silence, then reactivation of complaint, another assurance improvements were coming, followed by silence. I know there are severe cutbacks (accept your party line Mr Barber) but come on concillors, try and serve your community.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi TonyQuinn, unfortunately the bus routes are not under the control of the council but the bus companies and TFL. Therefore even if Southwark/Lewisham Council Officer or Councillors come up with very sensible plans and present them to TFL, it is actually outside our controls if they happen. In the discussions I have had over the last few months, TFL rather cut bus services rather than expand them. I can propose an additional 'p' type bus route as suggested above (shall I, what do residents think?), but I suspect it would be highly unlikely to happen, so don't get your hopes up. I have already complained about the P13 service along its current route but with little impact.

Renata

[neilson99]

Why is a double decker unacceptable? Surely an extra 5 mins journey for the 63 is the most easy, sensible and straightforward option? I still can't understand why TFL and Boris keep knocking this back. It would be especially welcome at the moment for those that have to get through the mess at the bottom end of Forest Hill Road to get to Peckham Rye/London Bridge.

[TonyQuinn]

Neilson99, you clearly haven't read any of this thread. The problems have been identified especially well by Katrusja.

[neilson99]

Well I consider myself well and trully told off Tony Quin! I did read some but I just didn't have the time for the full 6 pages to be honest, but anyway, thanks for your helpful sign - posting.

Hope you have a happy day!

[James Barber]

Hi TonyQuinn,

That's a bit unfair - all the main parties accept major cut were and are required. What is cut and how are the points being debated.

I agree with Renata that TfL will take a lot of persuading to extend the no.63. The best way is to undertake a study forecasting passenger numbers and revenue. We all think it would be self funding. TfL need convincing.

Officers estimated for me that such a study would cost ?5,000-?10,0000.

So I've highlighted here that TfL gives Southwark ?100,000 pa to spend on any transport issue. So a tiny part of that could fund such a study - exploring the concerns highlights raised. Or the ward councillors could use some of their devolved revenue funding for such a study.

So if you want the extension email Renata asking her as ward councillor to use devolved budget for study and or email cllr [email protected] to use some of is devolved TfL transport spend on such a study.

Further post here are interesting but won't make push the extension along. Take some direct action.

[TonyQuinn]

Mr Barber, I really do appreciate your involvement in this forum regardless of what one thinks of what your colleagues in Westminster are doing. In the meantime, I think it's clear here that the large chunk of the affected people have no desire for the 63 to be extended. It would be a huge waste of money, money that could better spent making the roads round here a little safer. This afternoon, some guy went straight into the gates of Francesca Cabrini school. Thank God it was Saturday. I have no idea how he got stuck in the gates but I'm pretty sure the chaotic nature of that junction is to blame. I have raised my concerns over the traffic at the top of Forest Hill Road ad nauseum with the folks at Southwark Council but nothing has been done. 10,000 quid would be better spent there than a feasibility study into the merits of extending the 63 bus. Please relay this to your colleagues at the council Mr Barber and Ms/Miss/Mrs Hamvas.