What happened to the possible extension of the 63 bus?

[Zany05]

It is crazy there are lots of Fairlawn mums living in Marmora road having to push those big prams up that very steep hill. I live in Honor Oak Road and the bus doesn't go up to there!!!! Currently pregnant and as Co-op in Forest Hill Road is my local grocery pushing my a buggy up that steep hill being pregnant is a nightmare. I also feel for the elderley. Something must be done. If another petition has to be drawn up I'm well up for supporting it and taking it around houses!!!

[the-e-dealer]

He knocked on my Door in Friern Road And I am in favour of the extension of the 63. And have been since before Cllr Edwards was a councillor.

[henryb]

How about the idea of any possible subsidy coming the Southwark's devolved highways budget?

[LauraW]

Any more news on this? Has the campaign stopped since Boris Johnson got re-elected? The only evidence I've found online for an ongoing campaign is this:

http://campaigns.libdems.org.uk/extendthe63

Like many other folks, I'd find this an extremely useful route.

[Gavin Edwards]

Hi Laura,

Yes there is an ongoing campaign. Take a look at the Peckham Rye Labour Blog. Lots and lots of stuff on there. As it happens there's been some recent developments, so I guess this is a good chance to update people.

At a recent Council Assembly debate I offered local Tory Cllrs the chance to co-sign a letter with Peckham Rye's Labour Councillors to Boris Johnson. We've just agreed the wording of the letter and it went out yesterday.

The text of the letter is as follows:

Dear Boris,

For some years now, local residents in the Peckham Rye/East Dulwich area have been calling for a very modest extension of the 63 bus route to Honor Oak Park Station. The route currently stops on its southwards route on Forest Hill Road near Camberwell Old Cemetery. This is close to Honor Oak Park station, but not quite within a reasonable walking distance, particularly as the route is over a steep hill. Local people are extremely eager for this extension to be put in place without reducing the regularity of the existing service.

The last time Peckham Rye councillors wrote to you (along with our local Assembly Member, local MPs and the Leader of Southwark Council) making a case for this small extension we received a response from a TfL officer telling us that the extension would only generate 640 new trips per day and that the total subsidy per year for the extension would be 525,000. I attach a copy of this letter here. We believe that these estimates are based on passenger demand prior to the opening of Overground East London Line services from Honor Oak Station. We would therefore argue there is far more demand for the extension now, and that the resultant subsidy required is much lower.

We write now, on a cross-party basis, to ask you to request TfL officials to look again at the financial case for implementing the 63 bus extension to Honor Oak Park. If, as we expect, a thorough and up to date assessment finds that the extension make sense as part of a joined up transport strategy, we would strongly urge you to put in place the extension.

I am sure you realise how rare it is for Labour and Conservative Councillors to join forces in this way. Please take this as an indication of the strength of feeling locally!

Your Sincerely,

Peckham Rye Labour Councillors and Southwark Conservative Councillors

[Anstergirl]

Sounds good Gavin. Here's hoping the extension of the route can be achieved. Would use it twice a day at least.

[trizza]

The extension would be great but the fact you can get the Overground from Peckham Rye now impacts the argument that the extension to Honor Oak is required to access that line.

[dbboy]

Or get the 63 to Peckham Rye Station and the London Overground is your "oysrer" so to speak.

[Renata Hamvas]

HOP is in zone 3 and has direct links to the Croydon Area on the London Overground. Peckham Rye is in zone 2 and has links to Clapham junction and going north on the London Overground.For people who need to travel south, the connection from HOP would be the preferred on in terms of route and travelcard zone. To get on the Southbound London Overground from Peckham Rye, you would need to go PR to Surry Quays and then change trains. From my discussions with local residents, it is a route extension that is wanted and would be used by local people.

Renata

[Medley]

It would also provide the likes of me, living in HOP itself, with a night-time bus connection to Elephant and thus other buses and the Northern and Bakerloo lines and Thameslink.

[TonyQuinn]

In theory, the extension down to Honor Oak Park makes sense. In practice, it has to be a non-starter. Top of Forest Hill Road is already busy enough, the turn down to the station by Cabrini school way too tight for it to be done safely many times a day. What makes it all the more difficult is the drive down to Honor Oak Park. The street is too narrow to accommodate a big red bus, there's little room for the P4 or P12 too. As an aside, the pavements down Honor Oak Park are way too small. The priority there has to be to make them bigger, not to allow big booming buses go down,

[Bic Basher]

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> HOP is in zone 3 and has direct links to the

> Croydon Area on the London Overground. Peckham Rye

> is in zone 2 and has links to Clapham junction and

> going north on the London Overground.For people

> who need to travel south, the connection from HOP

> would be the preferred on in terms of route and

> travelcard zone. To get on the Southbound London

> Overground from Peckham Rye, you would need to go

> PR to Surry Quays and then change trains. From my

> discussions with local residents, it is a route

> extension that is wanted and would be used by

> local people.

> Renata

Yet Peckham Rye has services to Crystal Palace and West Croydon direct from the station provided by Southern and is 5 mins bus ride away on Route 363 from Lordship Lane which connects with Route 197 for Sydenham, Penge (also served by Route 176), Anerley, Norwood Junction and Croydon.

Route 363 also serves Crystal Palace direct from Forest Hill Road and Wood Vale which negates the need to travel across the hill to the rail station.

[James Barber]

At the Council Assembly debate it was suggested that a transport survey was required to provided evidence the no.63 being extended would make sense.

It was estimated this would cost around ?10,000.

So that Friday I made a Cleaner, GReener, Safer application to the local ward councullors for that sum for that survey. Equally ward councillors could make such an application and indeed allocation.

If they think it's importat, and I hope they do, they'll fund this survey which should help prove it would be used.

The ball's in their court.

[TonyQuinn]

Mr Barber, once again it seems you have not read one's opinion. Please consider what I have written above. I promise you things like this are not just "full steam ahead" which seems to be the way you practice your politics.

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> At the Council Assembly debate it was suggested

> that a transport survey was required to provided

> evidence the no.63 being extended would make

> sense.

> It was estimated this would cost around ?10,000.

>

> So that Friday I made a Cleaner, GReener, Safer

> application to the local ward councullors for that

> sum for that survey. Equally ward councillors

> could make such an application and indeed

> allocation.

> If they think it's importat, and I hope they do,

> they'll fund this survey which should help prove

> it would be used.

>

> The ball's in their court.

[Medley]

One thing that's being forgotten is the potential catchment at the HOP end. At the moment the catchment is at the very start of the route is surely just the streets on the east side of the cemetery - Mundania, Marmora, Therapia etc.

But with extension to HOP whole new swathes come in, so there would be more towards town demand than at present (which I can't see being a problem as the 63 and 363 have never, in my experience, been anything like full from the start of the route)

[hoser]

It seems the councillors are willfully ignoring any negative aspects of this extension. There also seems to be no consultation for anyone living along the route of the extension (i.e. people living in Lewisham, not Southwark) who will experience greatly increased congestion, noise and pollution.

Medley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It would also provide the likes of me, living in

> HOP itself, with a night-time bus connection to

> Elephant and thus other buses and the Northern and

> Bakerloo lines and Thameslink.

The N171 already provides this...

[Katrusja]

I couldn't agree with hoser, TonyQuinn and others more. I walk from Therapia to HOP station and back at least once and sometimes twice a day (as does my husband), so on a personal level I would love to see the bus route extended - whilst I am happy and even enjoy the walk most of the time there are evenings when I crawl out of the station tired there is no P12 in sight. However, as I have been making this journey most days for a few years, the potential impact on residents, businesses and the local schools and the lack of willingness on the part of the local politicians to engage in reasoned debate about this has continued to frustrate me (it is not simply an issue of whether the route will be used, surely, which has also rightly been questioned). For this reason I have hesitated in posting my thoughts on this before, as I know the benefits seem apparent and clear, especially for those with mobility issues. But here are just some of the problems that occur to me every day (and I have seen most of them expressed by others here and elsewhere):

1) Forest Hill Road is considerably narrower from Brenchley Gardens up to Honor Oak Park, as is the pavement and residential properties line this stretch. Ideally the road would need to be widened, but at least it would have to have parking restrictions imposed. Local residents currently use the stretch between Brenchley Gardens and Honor Oak Rise for parking. What provisions would be made for them?

2) In addition, the same stretch of Forest Hill Road is very busy most mornings with parents dropping children off at Francesca Cabrini school. There is a lollipop lady positioned between Honor Oak Rise and Honor Oak Park to ensure parents and children cross safely (also children crossing to go to Fairlawn School on Honor Oak Road) and FH road is already congested at peak school times. If parking were restricted, this would also affect parents dropping their children off and surely any extension scheme would have to ensure safety for these groups whilst minimising impact on the 63 service.

3) The junction at the top of the road is currently awkward for a P12 to navigate, as there is a small filter lane for those turning right into Honor Oak Road from Forest Hill Road. Given the current layout, there is no way that a 63 bus would be able to pass in either direction if there were a car in this filter lane and there would need to be some careful consideration of how this junction could be reconfigured to keep traffic moving and ensure the safety of road users and pedestrians.

4) Honor Oak Park has parking (partially on the pavement and partially on the road) all the way down the hill from near Hengrave Road, which seems to me to be very well used. There are also no restrictions to parking on the One Tree Hill side for much of the stretch from the entrance to the church down to the recreation ground. Clearly for two 63 buses to use this route safely there would need to be no parking on this stretch of road. Again, where would residents (paricularly those from the block of flats next to the Segal houses) park?

5) One Tree Hill has drainage issues (water pours out of the wooded area and down the road from mid-way down the hill causing potholes, etc.), which I notice some work seems to have been started on, but this breaks up the the road surface on Honor Oak Park with the current level of traffic. There would need to be some work done to strengthen this and resolve these problems if the road were to be frequently used by double decker buses.

6) The parade of shops after HOP station have parking in front of them. Two P12/P4 buses cannot currently pass on this stretch when cars are parked on both sides. Therefore, I would assume that the parking would have to be removed. Again, has anyone consulted local residents and businesses on this?

7) The bus stand at Brockley Rise currently holds 2-3 buses and there is parking for the small businesses and residents there. The 63 extension would demand space for at least another two buses on this stand. How would these be accommodated? Would the limited parking available here also be removed?

8) Finally, the congestion around HOP in the evenings causes severe disruption to existing services (P4/P12). How would this be dealt with to ensure 63 buses didn't just simply terminate at Peckham Rye or the Forest Hill Tavern or going the other way at Clerkenwell or even Elephant during peak times when they are most likely to be used!?

I am always hesitant to be the person who points out the negative, but this is just a summary of some of the potential issues. I'm not saying that they cannot be addressed, but as has been suggested, please can we have some joined-up thinking and consultation that involves ALL of the people/organisations/communities involved and not just those who support easier access to HOP from Peckham Rye/ED? I know this is a long post, but I would like for it to be taken seriously (the use of the terms 'very modest' and 'small' to describe the extension, as well as the notion that it can somehow be trialled, suggest these issues are not really being considered).

[Marmora Man]

Katrusja,

Rather than being a negative post, your note appears an excellent and clearly thought through summary of issues to be considered - most of which those in favour of the extension seem to have ignored. I occasionally use HOP station and occasionally walk there and back. Initially the idea of extending the 63 was attractive but I can see that to save me some. probably useful, exercise many people would have to be inconvenienced.

[trizza]

I think Katrusja raises a number of fair points.

I would love the extension but cannot really see how a double decker would navigate around the junction at the top of Forest Hill Road.

[the-e-dealer]

1. Re-route bus.

2. different Vehicle

[henryb]

Regarding the congestion/noise - that road (on both sides of the hill) has easily over 2000 vehicles and an hour in peak times including many HGVs and 2 existing bus routes. An extra 10 busses an hour isn?t going make a significant difference to congestion or noise.

One of the reasons the traffic is so heavy is because of the poor public transport links. Connecting the 63 to the Overground at Honor Oak Park would improve this and will help reduce congestion.

The corner doesn?t look so bad to me and I?ve seen out of service double deckers go that way. But it is up to TFL to decide whether it is safe or not.

Yes the road is narrower than lower down but it is not as narrow as other parts of the 63 route. Plus it already has busses running on it - a double decker isn?t any wider the singe decker bus.

The buses could still use the existing stand so no new stand needs to be built at Brockley Rise

And yes there are other routes and you can walk but they would take longer and walking that hill is difficult for some people. If we want to encourage people out of their cars then improving the public transport network is the best way to do this.

Obviously a serious cost/benefit analysis needs to be done and the extension needs to be done in way so the rest of the service is not affected. But I am all for it.

[Me'mate'Dave]

From Katrusja's comment below

8) Finally, the congestion around HOP in the evenings causes severe disruption to existing services (P4/P12). How would this be dealt with

This can easily be dealt with if the parked cars at the lights at the end of Honor Oak Parade were not allowed to park there. I'd say around 70% of the cars in the traffic jam that builds up want to turn left, there is a left filter light which comes on way before the full green light, however this filter becomes blocked leaving left turing cars frustrated as they can see clear road ahead which is blocked by traffic stuck on red wanting to go straight ahead or right and these parked cars.

A simple fix to avoid the huge traffic jams that go all the way up Honor Oak Park sometimes into Forest Hill Road

[Renata Hamvas]

To add to this debate, I have been reading all the comments on here and taking on board (I do want to hear all opinions on the subject). Many Peckham Rye Ward residents have said to myself and my fellow Councillors Vikki and Gavin that they would find an extension to the 63 very useful.

Prior to Christmas an East Dulwich resident told me that she had asked a 63 driver if he could drop her at the top of the hill where the 63 turns round (Wood Vale junction). He said that he couldn't as the buses weren't insured to carry passengers up the hill. Following this conversation, I went and spent a few minutes watching traffic movement where the 63 U-turns. The Peckham Rye Councillors initially approached Boris and TFL about looking into this route in 2010. Both parties said they wouldn't extend as it would be too costly. I recently contacted our GLA representative, Valerie Shawcross to ask her what she thought about the 63 starting and terminating in the bus designated lane at the top of the Hill (ie extending the route by one bus stop). The buses drive up there empty anyway and it is a reasonable level and short walk round the corner to pick up the P12 from Brenchley Gardens. The first and last bus stop of the route would be in the same place, at the end of Brenchley Gardens. This kind of system is currently in place at the first/last stop of the 343 bus on Jerningham Road. I don't know, however, if it is feasible due to the slope. The 363 would be affected in that they would need to go in the right lane at the Wood Vale junction with other traffic.

The advantages that I see if this is possible, is that residents with mobility problems, heavy shopping or buggies would be able to take the bus one stop further up a steep hill and then change to the P12 if they are going over the hill. If there were a significant number of passengers using the 63 for the extra stop, this would give an indication that it would be viable to extend the route over the hill (taking into account the issues mentioned by Posters above too). It had negligible cost implications as empty buses are already going up and down this stretch of Forest Hill Road. I know that the 363 stops on Wood Vale, however to get to the P12 from there involves crossing the double crossing at Forest Hill Road. This has now been submitted to TFL for them to consider it. Thoughts everybody?

Renata

[TonyQuinn]

Katrusja, that must rank in my top 5 of posts I have read on this forum over the years. Thank you for putting in the time and effort to go way beyond my sparse concerns.

And Ms/Miss/Mrs Hamvas, I have no problem with the 63 being extended one stop to terminate at the Cemetery Gates. That would clearly plug a gap for many residents and I think is the best short-term solution. Constructive proposal which compares favourably with Mr Barber's "full steam ahead" approach.

[the-e-dealer]

Not bad idea for a start in improving the link but a fully integrated transport system really should link stations and buses.