Punched and racially abused on Adys Road (goose green) next to church

[Beej]

>

> We don't have to use the term racism though.

EXACTLY, people need to educate themselves and start using the correct language because language has power and it's important. I was taught very early on in first year Politics that black people can be prejudice against white people but they can't be racist because they don't hold the position of power. Think that's the legal position anyway... although these days you's hardly know it, suddenly everyone's experiencing racism. So getting back to how this all this started, no, it's not a two way street. BUT prejudice, aggression and hatred in all it's many guises is indeed horrible and I'm sorry the original poster experienced it.

[Tractorlad]

Hasn't the greenfly been dreadful this year?

[FightingFit]

Tractorlad Wrote:

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> Hasn't the greenfly been dreadful this year?

.. and the black fly

[bil]

Toffee Wrote:

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> So sorry to hear this. I hope you?re not too badly

> hurt. Racism is a 2 way thing I?m afraid. We only

> ever hear of one side though.

Racism is not a two way thing! What side do you only hear of? The side where people are oppressed, treated unfairly, unable to get jobs and similar opportunities just because of the colour of their skin? Racism is fundamentally about people from a race believing they are superior to another race and treating those people as inferior to themselves. Racism is much deeper than using skin colour in a sentence to insult/attack someone.

I'm sorry Cles was attacked. This should never happen to anyone, I wish our streets were safe and people would stop hurting each other.

[bil]

TheCat Wrote:

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> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > TheCat Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> >

> > > For example, one might be happy to support

> the

> > > view that it is minorities who suffer more at

> > the

> > > hands of prejudice, but if one cant express a

> > view

> > > that (on occasion) they have also suffered in

> > some

> > > way (even though they are a

> > > man/white/rich/straight) without being met

> with

> > > incredulity about how they could possibly

> ever

> > > understand suffering because they are a

> > > man/white/rich/straight.....then doesn't that

> > > breed resentment? and lead to disinterest in

> > > people being willing to listen to stories

> about

> > > the suffering of others, because no one

> > listened

> > > to theirs?

> >

> > I entirely agree, I think problems arise when

> > people start pushing the idea of an

> equivalence,

> > e.g. men suffer just as much oppression from

> women

> > as vice versa, racism is just as bad for white

> > people etc. That negates the reality of all

> > experiences and is often used as an excuse to

> > continue bad behaviour: "they" are just as bad

> as

> > "us", "we" suffer just as much as "them", so

> you

> > can't blame "us" for carrying on.

>

>

> As with all these sorts of issues these days, the

> internet shoulders much of the blame, as the lack

> of nuance in debate creates division where there

> probably needn't be. I dont think most reasonable

> 'non-PC brigade' people would deny that minorities

> suffer 'more' rascism, and women suffer 'more'

> sexism. They probably just want recognition and

> acknowledgement on those occasions when the

> opposite is true...instead of being told that

> someone else has it worse...and therefore

> 'invalidating their lived experience' (to coin a

> progressive left phrase!).

I hadn't seen page 2. Thanks Rendelharris for acknowledging the difference.

[LordshipLaneGal]

Rendel Harris, as a POC I agree with everything you?ve said and I don?t think you?ve ?picked on? anybody. They didn?t need to bring up racism being a two way thing because it seemed like a comparison and I took offence.A white person could not experience the level of racism that people of colour do in the UK. I?m sorry you had to deal with being called a white bitch. However people of colour have to deal with systemic racism and there is simply no comparison. Soz

[uncleglen]

And positive discrimination and affirmative action has done nothing to alleviate racism- it has exacerbated it in some areas of our cities and set up serious resentments...

[Robert Poste's Child]

Can you give some examples to support those claims, uncleglen?

[alice]

Anecdotes are not evidence

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> And positive discrimination and affirmative action

> has done nothing to alleviate racism- it has

> exacerbated it in some areas of our cities and set

> up serious resentments...

Some people (you) are on a hairtrigger to be resentful about anything. We do not have positive discrimination in the UK except in very, very specific circumstances (e.g. allowing women-only applications for staff at a women's refuge), it's generally illegal under the Equality Act. Frothers like you think we have positive discrimination ("I met a bloke down the pub who told me only black people can get jobs with the council" etc etc) but that's because you'd believe anything.

[JoeLeg]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> And positive discrimination and affirmative action

> has done nothing to alleviate racism- it has

> exacerbated it in some areas of our cities and set

> up serious resentments...

More Alf Garnett style rubbish from the keyboard warrior.

What he wants to say is that he thinks white British people are being discriminated against, but he hasn?t actually got anything to prove it.

Or have you? Come on then mate, back up your arguments.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Can't we have a debate without people launching personal attacks all the time?

Perhaps uncleglen was thinking of Southwark's housing policy, for example. Some local people, not me but certainly people using this forum, have been told by council staff that BME have priority, meaning some people who were born and lived all their lives in Dulwich have had to move away from their families, even out of London. It's not hard to feel empathy for people in that position and doing that doesn't mean you feel any less empathy for people who do fit into the BME category.

[japseylarue]

BME people may also have been born and lived all their lives in Dulwich too. Not that this has anything to do with the original post.

[JoeLeg]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> Can't we have a debate without people launching

> personal attacks all the time?

Firstly, I make no apology for pointing out that UG has repeatedly posted anecdotally-sourced personal beliefs and refused to back them up with even the flimsiest of arguments, almost all of which are anusive towards non-white British people. There is a pattern of bigotry to his posts.

Secondly he isn?t interested in debate - he comes on here to tell us how stupid we all are and how we know nothing of the world outside SE22. I?ve tries to engage him in debate in the past, now I?m content to call him what he is; a racist and a keyboard warrior.

>

> Perhaps uncleglen was thinking of Southwark's

> housing policy, for example. Some local people,

> not me but certainly people using this forum, have

> been told by council staff that BME have priority,

> meaning some people who were born and lived all

> their lives in Dulwich have had to move away from

> their families, even out of London. It's not hard

> to feel empathy for people in that position and

> doing that doesn't mean you feel any less empathy

> for people who do fit into the BME category.

Can you point to anything to back that up? If it?s true then it?s hard to see how it?s legal, and certainly not morally supportable. But I?d like to see some evidence.

[rendelharris]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> Some local people, not me but certainly people using

> this forum, have been told by council staff that BME

> have priority

Shouldn't that be "some people claim to have been told by council officials that BME have priority"? Or is there any evidence that this is actually a council policy? First I've heard of it if so.

[Robert Poste's Child]

japseylarue Wrote:

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> BME people may also have been born and lived all

> their lives in Dulwich too. Not that this has

> anything to do with the original post.

That's right, and they may be male, female, gay, trans, other, have experienced abuse or neglect (in all classes), older, younger, with physical or cognitive limitations, or mental health problems, or responsible for small children or elderly family members, or socially isolated, or with limited savings or pension that put them just outside policy but aren't enough to live on, or a combination of those, any of which may play into what they experience and the support they need. It's complex.

[alice]

As it?s complex why post a ug style anecdote about housing

[Robert Poste's Child]

JoeLeg and RH, those are both fair challenges and I can't answer the first without naming peoole, which obviously isn't appropriate. The underlying point, though, is that any managed or forced change to our culture tends to leave some people feeling pushed out, and others just fearful. You can mitigate that in my opinion by organising people around an idea effectively (whether a good or bad one), or evolution will eventually probably take care of it, if very slowly - for example, most white native Londoners in the last few generations have grown up in increasingly multi-cultural surroundings. My younger family members, for example, are genuinely colour-blind in a way that I, forty to fifty years older, am not. That doesn't mean I'm racist - I really hope not, anyway - but like many people my age, my idea and attitudes (and relationships) have changed over time as society has changed. When I look back to my childhood, or read books written in the first half of the 20th century it seems unbelievable how normal casual racism was. Casual sexism and ageism have persisted even longer.

[Robert Poste's Child]

alice Wrote:

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> As it?s complex why post a ug style anecdote about

> housing

Because debate is important and the ability to discuss things honestly and politely is an (I hope) inalienable part of our culture. It's one of the reason why people in less stable parts of the world want to join us.

Reductive comments like yours just polarise any attempt at an inclusive debate.

[Sally Eva]

One of the criteria to go on the housing list is 5 years residence in southwark.

As someone has said any sort of eligibility related to race or ethnic background would be struck down in law. All council eligibility criteria are published.

If you know anyone who has been told (by someone with authority to do so) that they stand no chance of council housing because they are not BME you should redirect them to Southwark Citizens Advice who can refer them to Southwark Law Centre.

Little council housing has been built for many years and a lot has been sold. Anyone's chances of social housing (ie including housing association) is therefore largely dependent on homelessness criteria -- disability, age, vulnerability etc.

[Penguin68]

It may be (I am not saying that it is) that more BME households fit the social housing 'needs' criteria in Southwark (indeed, if so, that is a sort of indictment about equality issues anyway) - but the racial profiling of households per se as regards housing allocation does not happen.

[alice]

Facts work better than anecdotes in any debate.

Thanks se

[JoeLeg]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg and RH, those are both fair challenges and

> I can't answer the first without naming peoole,

> which obviously isn't appropriate.

Then I fear to say, given the points made by other posters, I?m not sure the people you know necessarily have a grip the on the full picture.

The underlying

> point, though, is that any managed or forced

> change to our culture tends to leave some people

> feeling pushed out, and others just fearful. You

> can mitigate that in my opinion by organising

> people around an idea effectively (whether a good

> or bad one), or evolution will eventually probably

> take care of it,

Well, I agree in broad principle with what you say, but in this day and age there is really very little excuse for reactionary attitudes to govern a persons attitude to social change.

If we?ve learnt anything from the last fifty years in this respect, it?s that society is in a constant state of flux. A lot of the problems resulting from this are laid at the door of local and central government mismanagement. I?m not trying to say that people should not feel hard done by - successive administrations in the U.K. have absolutely taken the white working class for granted, from Penzance to Perth and more besides. But the reaction of individuals is to blame other people, not the power structures actually responsible for this.

if very slowly - for example,

> most white native Londoners in the last few

> generations have grown up in increasingly

> multi-cultural surroundings. My younger family

> members, for example, are genuinely colour-blind

> in a way that I, forty to fifty years older, am

> not. That doesn't mean I'm racist - I really hope

> not, anyway - but like many people my age, my idea

> and attitudes (and relationships) have changed

> over time as society has changed. When I look back

> to my childhood, or read books written in the

> first half of the 20th century it seems

> unbelievable how normal casual racism was. Casual

> sexism and ageism have persisted even longer.

All very true. I had an argument with a recent Oxford graduate a couple of months ago who tried to tell me that I did not understand how prevalent racism and sexism is, and what needed to be done to combat it. I enjoyed pointing out that the battles they and their friends are now - quite rightly - fighting are only possible because people of my generation decided we?d not tolerate the casual, endemic racism in society, and the people before us had enough of the legalised racism in this country and abroad.

I guess my point is that we, as a society, don?t seem to have moved in too far. We still find it much easier to blame others creeds, colours, ethnicities and beliefs than to look closer and ask ourselves - ?who is actually benefitting from what?s going on??.

I have no time for the dog whistle sound bite bigotry that UG, Tommy Robinson and others peddle. All it does is turn us against each other and tell us that someone else is responsible for our problems. And that someone is always an ethnic group, who strangely somehow have great influence on those in power. Nope, I?m not buying it either.