Whither the euro?

[New Nexus]

Keep taken the blue pill.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-09/china-investment-stops-buying-europe-debt-on-crisis-concern-1-.html

[El Pibe]

It's actually quite a limited bot.

I reckon I can knock up a NewNexusBot in python fairly quickly with an rss reader pointing at a few choice news sites and blogs and a limited bunch of keywords.

[Huguenot]

Something along the lines of the Daily Mail-o-matic?

Fairly limited vocabulary poorly spelt and used inappropriately, metaphors derived from sci-fi films targeted at teenage boys, indecipherable sentence structure, and a loosely organised warehouse of conspiracies all interconnected as statements of fact.

[New Nexus]

glad to see I?m pissing off tweedle dee and tweedle dum

[showboat]

I don't think you're Pissing people off - they just find you ridiculous.'

Personally I think you're either certifiably crazy or some kind of ?ber troll.

Either way you're making a fool of yourself.

[New Nexus]

Goodbye Greece, hello Spain ? hedgie, hedgie, hedgie. Italy get in line.

[DaveR]

I can't believe Hugo is still blaming bankers

It makes you about as credible as New Nexus (albeit with a more attractive prose style)

[Kingsbury David]

I've been posting the same things everywhere who have raised this issue. Allowing a failed state/s was part of the original plan, and Greece and others similar have been used to sacrifice the people for the greater integration which will be offered as the only solution for the deliberate problem created when Greece was allowed in when guaranteed to fail.

This is the first test of the system, and considering it is not chaotic or unexpected then presumably neither will the outcome be. The welfare of the Greek people has been sacrificed to strengthen the EU and another unwanted move towards full integration. Ignore the media, if they really left the whole system governing the world (ie the UN/EU and all those behind them) will no longer be omnipotent, which currently I believe they are, although with the internet once enough people learn their methods will no longer be. But currently that is a long way off. The Commission make the rules, the parliament discuss and approve them, and we pay. The Euro itself allows those in charge (ie the Germans) to reduce their currency to vastly increase exports, and thus win the war despite appearing to lose it. If allowed to continue their and the French power and wealth will increase while the others will lose out. How far towards full integration do we need to go before people notice it?

[Huguenot]

Heh heh.

So instead of 'the Euro is bad because it has failed', your argument is to the opposite: the Euro is bad because it has been tremendously successful, and this is all part of a Franco German conspiracy to create a New World Order that's actually part of the as yet unfinished Third Reich?

We are indeed lucky that you have been posting everywhere your theory that the Second World War is not over!

[????]

Spain totters and the only way out of it is for the countries in the Eurozone to take huge decisions very quickly, and without a political/democratic mandate. Decisions which they should have taken in the beginning of the Euro* and which they seem unwilling to make now and even IF they do will have Massive repercussions politically. What a foooking mess.

*decisons which would have almost certainly been rejecrted by the Euro Countries voters at that time - pesky democracy getting in the way of grand visions of people who think they know better - so they fudged it and now the chickens are coming home.

A disaster.

[Huguenot]

Only a dsiaster if you're of the somewhat naive persuasion that the people know the road to take.

The 'people' left to their own devices would have very little were it not for the vital contribution of small groups of visionary individuals that gave them clean water, supermarkets, a roof over their heads and a job to go to every day.

Let us hope that this 'grand vision' comes to pass - because despite your protestations, without it we would have a real 'foooking mess'.

[????]

The 'people' left to their own devices would have very little were it not for the vital contribution of small groups of visionary individuals that gave them clean water, supermarkets, a roof over their heads and a job to go to every day.

I think you forgot 'trains that ran on time'...

Elitist claptrap, I have far more faith in people than you do

[Huguenot]

That's because you invented the wheel, the printing press, penicillin, the lightbulb and electricity right?

Oh no, that'll be elitists saying 'we shouldn't have progress because the people would prefer that lightning is the angry gods'.

I have faith in people to be people, perfectly nice but the vast majority (including myeslf) don't do much at all.

You leave 'the people' to their own devices and they'll be hanging witches, intellectuals and monkeys (for being spies).

We rely heavily on 'elite' people more intelligent and more altruistic than us to try and find problems to pressing needs regarding food, shelter, sex and self-actualisation.

We disparage 'elites' because they reveal our own inadequacies and yet supply our most critical needs. Without them we are nothing. We hate them because they expose our vulnerabilities. It's a symbiotic relationship that wsier people would cherish.

Europe and integration is one of those foundation issues upon which our future propsperity depend. If you put petty triblalists in charge and THEN we're 'fooked'.

It's about creating cross-border resource management that allow us to fragment and disperse without fear of disadvantage.

Don't let the mob anywhere near it unless you want those decisions taken by small minded bullies who think that the people in the next road are stealing their jobs.

[????]

So you are seriously SERIOUSLY grouping a bunch of European technocrats, some bankers and a few pretty average European politicians of the late 1990s with Caxton, Eddison, Fleming et al? Mmmm, that explains a great deal. It was a dumb idea for the times, poorly executed by idiots not the european elite.

[silverfox]

The success or failure of the European experiment will ultimately rest with the people.

Lord Owen's proposal of a referendum in The Times today is well worth reading as a means of resolving the continent?s crisis while preserving Britain?s self-governing status.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/article3437756.ece

As The Times leader itself states:

"...Europe?s crisis is not only about technical flaws in the adoption of a single currency. It is more fundamentally about the incompatibility of the different models that EU governments have been pursuing while claiming to be engaged in a common endeavour. Lord Owen maintains that countries that see their future as part of an ever closer union should be free to pursue that goal. But those who favour a union of self-governing states should have their sovereignty respected while being able to remain in a restructured single market.

The eurozone crisis has exposed three stresses. First, monetary union cannot work well without political union, which requires, second, a solution to Europe?s democratic deficit. That leads, third, to the inevitable conclusion that this country will turn its back on Europe. Lord Owen suggests a way through, in which Britain can remain part of a renewed single market without submitting to the demand to be part of a single government.

Monetary union requires mechanisms to transfer funds from states that are flourishing to those that are struggling. It also requires a Europe-wide bank regulator and centralised bond issuance. Fiscal union therefore requires that decisions over budgets be taken away from national parliaments. Budgetary decisions not taken at the national level must be accountable to the people of Europe through democratically elected representatives rather than government appointed bureaucrats. Dealing with Europe?s democratic deficit then runs into the problem of British sovereignty. If the integrationist project is about building institutions over the heads of national electorates, British governments have the obligation, as well as the right, to resist..."

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/leaders/article3437850.ece

[Huguenot]

The majority of Britons can't tell the difference between Europe, the EEC and the Euro and think that bothering to find out would somehow demean them.

A European technocrat doesn't need to be Einstein to make better informed decisions.

The electorate should use their vote to elect representatives who can make better and more informed decisions - they shouldn't be dictating the outcome.

The fact that mistakes were made in the past is neither here nor there. Worse mistakes would be made if we were governed by referenda.

[silverfox]

Huguenot said:

"...The electorate should use their vote to elect representatives who can make better and more informed decisions - they shouldn't be dictating the outcome..."

I understand the point you are trying to make about competent representatives elected by us to make decisions on our behalf. Unfortunately we can no longer do this as the solution to the crisis would appear to be a fait au complit, ie full political and fiscal union. Now whether or not this takes the form of a Federal Union headed by Germany or some other form, the fact is political and budgetary decisions will no longer rest with individual governments.

In short, we would be electing representatives who would be dictating to us. Only a fool would allow himself to become part of that Alice in Wonderland dream like world.

[Huguenot]

You're a pretty good case in point Silverfox.

You can't tell the difference between the EEC and the Euro.

Closer political union would only be required from those buying in to the fiscal compact.

The point the Lord Owen makes about this is choice.

The UK will only buy into a more integrated union if it seems right for the UK.

That means that the rest of your views about being a fait accompli are simply scare stories.

I also recognise the Times use of the perpetual and popular misdirection about European beauracrats. As I've pointed out, they are no different to the civil service, and no more or less democratic.

Opposition to EU integration is worthwhile and reasonable, deliberate spreading of deceptions and misconceptions is not.

[silverfox]

"You're a pretty good case in point Silverfox.

You can't tell the difference between the EEC and the Euro... "

Let me guess Huguenot, is one a (noddy) currency that half of Europe is trying to change into Sterling and US Dollars before they become completely destitute?

[Huguenot]

There's that poorly informed jingoist streak again.

That's why referendums are so stupid.

[silverfox]

Only 10 days to the re-run of the Greek elections Huguenot.

Get your incontinence pants ready

(Greek neo-Nazi MP slaps female rival

A Greek neo-Nazi MP slaps a female politician during a heated TV debate on the election. He is now being hunted by police) http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article3438646.ece

[Jeremy]

Erm... I don't think the EEC exists anymore...

[????]

...don't worry Jeremy, Huge's european mindset is operating in about 1997 :))

[New Nexus]

2-year German Government Bond Yield (Schatz) = 0.002% (at 0.01% right now)

[silverfox]

I'm trying to understand what's gone on with the Spanish bail-out.

I realise the Eurozone had to act swiftly because of Sunday's Greek vote, but the way it's been done, and the lack of attached austerity measures, has now given carte blanche to Greece, Portugal and Ireland to demand that the conditions attached to their bail-outs be renegociated.

Very puzzling