Women Drivers

[StraferJack]

or more specifically, women drivers in Saudi

beyond acceptable

We are talking about women getting flogged for not even breaking any law here.

Madness

[mockney piers]

It is obviously appalling but was almost certainly wilfully so, it's a statement by the religious elite to the political elite.

As much as we criticise Saudi autocracy and the hypocrisy of Western stances towards different countries in that region, I think it actually serves to highlight just how deeply conservative much of that country is and just how long and slow a process reform is there.

As concerned as the authorities are by the Arab spring I don't think we're going to see the same sort of uprisings there and any movement by the authorities to head off dissent and turmoil will be very small.

That's not to say it won't happen, this is exactly the sort of spark which can do it.

Idiotic is well as immoral!!

[StraferJack]

I realise as well that my line "not even breaking any law here" is ambiguous - it could be read as breaking any UK law, when I meant to say it's not even Saudi law which prevents women driving - it' s entirely religious/cultural

[Marmora Man]

SJ - in Saudi Arabia the religious law is the law. I have a Saudi friend whose wife is Lebanese. Outside of Saudi she wears Western dress, drinks wine, drives and will lounge by a hotel pool in a bikini. In Saudi she wears a full burkha and observes the local rules.

The far greater threat to the long term stability of Saudi is the, almost, complete lack of industry or opportunity for the young. Apart from investment in infrastructure Saudi oil money has not benefited the majority of Saudis - and this will create / is creating tensions that will be difficult to resolve without major overhaul of Saudi society. The Arab spring may not arrive in Saudi this year, but the ingredients are there. An autocratic regime, access to external influences via web, Twitter etc, unhappy youth and a burgeoning population with little stake in the country's wealth.

[mockney piers]

Frustrated youth helps provide the impetus towards demonstrations of frustration and discontent, but the various incarnations of the Arab spring have needed a buy in from the wider society.

Successful democracies in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt (although so far 0.6 out of 3) and Iraq *ahem*, might help reignite the urgency of movements in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria et al, but I've a feeling that wider society in Saudi might view the consequent liberalisation as more of a threat to their society than their current lack of political expression and opportunity is.

Or I could be wrong, there are certainly powerful radical elements in SA and if the country finds itself marginalised and increasingly irrelevant in a changed middle eastern landscape then the winds of freedom may yet blow there too.

[Jeremy]

According to BBC news, the sentence has been overturned by the King, so at least some common sense has prevailed. There seems to be some gentle optimism that the stance towards such things is softening, and there is a gradual shift to allowing women to participate in society.

I think the King really has little choice - reforms have to come quickly if he wants the monarchy to survive.

[mockney piers]

The King is a reformer, he's being doing it slooooowly for years. It remains to be seen if the pace quickens as that could potentially be as destabilising as too slow.

A tricky one, just because the liberal west (minus AFN obviously) likes the idea of it, doesn't mean dramatic reforms are good for other societies.

You only have to look at how happy Russia is with it's new tsar after the Yeltsin years of rampant change to see how damaging pulling the societal/cultural rug from under the feet of a nation can be.

[StraferJack]

but we can agree that NOT flogging women for driving a car doesn't constiture dramatic reform surely?

If we can tell Georgia USA off for executing someone last week, we can surely tell SA off for this

[mockney piers]

True, dramatic reform is creating laws that can prevent the religious conservatives from handing down this sort of punishment. This hasn't been done, what's happened is the rulers have interceded to prevent this happening because it made the news.

There's nothing to tell off here, but what it does show is that international pressure can alter the reality on the ground in SA, it'll achieve bugger all in Georgia.

[Mick Mac]

In a country where a huge majority of people follow one religion, then the law will, in the main, be passed by religious people and their religious views will out, either officially through legislation or by precedent through the courts.

The lack of certainty on what you can, as a woman, be accused of is very disturbing, especially if it is just an interpretation of the Quran, and probably a male interpretation.

But there is certainly very little the west can do about it other than express our discontent. The religion and the Quran is their way of life.

Some religions don't support equal rights. We have to understand that and they won't give much of a hoot what the western democracies think about it. The battle has to be fought from within the country. Lots more woman will suffer before the landscape changes.

Unfortunatley many people in many countries still live their lives by the word of books written many hundreds of years ago. Madness.

[womanofdulwich]

you mean like apartheid in south africa then?

Express discontent?

[Mick Mac]

I'm saying in some countries the religion is effectively the law. You cannot change the historic religious writings. The writings are fixed and their interpretation is long ingrained. So long as the religion dominates the thinking of the powers that be, the law will reflect those religious writings.

Religion is not something thats shifts easily. As a result there is little hope of a sudden change in perspective or law without a move to democracy.

Apartheid changed with the help of the will of the world, but it was not supported by religion and therefore a statesman and his gvenment were able to bring about change on behalf of a country on a democratic basis.

[StraferJack]

Religious adherence in Ireland went from near-absolute to negligible in a generation. You accord it too much respect in Saudi, mick

[david_carnell]

I think comparing Catholicism in Ireland to Wahhabi Islam in Saudi Arabia might be pushing it a little.

And whilst I don't want to teach a grandmother to suck eggs, the idea that religion in Ireland is now negligible is also an overstatement of an essentially young and urban standpoint. Women aren't still getting on ferries for abortions for no reason. It is still a pervasive undercurrent of conservative thought amongst large numbers of people. Monthly church attendance is still around 60-70%. Not bad for negligible religious adherence.

And expecting the House of Saud to relax religious orthodoxy relating to women by comparing it to apartheid is also hopelessly naive. Whilst it remains a stable (albeit autocratic) regime in the region it acts as a bulwark to more dangerous elements. Not to mention the desire by the west not to upset the price of crude oil. The US has been supporting, not just propping up, that regime for decades despite its human rights abuses and will continue to do so.

South Africa was an international pariah with little in the way of natural resources to bargain with at an international level. Arms blockades, trade embargos, an eventual moderation in government position and a comprehensive internal opposition were all ingredients that led towards the end of apartheid. None of those things exist in Arabia.

[Mick Mac]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Religious adherence in Ireland went from

> near-absolute to negligible in a generation. You

> accord it too much respect in Saudi, mick

The Saudi people certainly accord it too much respect. I can't see Saudi relegating the importantance of religion any time soon.

[Mick Mac]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> And expecting the House of Saud to relax religious

> orthodoxy relating to women by comparing it to

> apartheid is also hopelessly naive.

I don't know where you got that from DC. If its my post you are refering to, I was saying quite the opposite. Read more carefully.

[david_carnell]

I know MM - it wasn't directed at you at all. Should have been clearer in directing it towards WoD.

[womanofdulwich]

I dont think it is just the religion, because women in other muslim countries can drive cars.It is the interpretation of it.All Saudi women have to rely on men for transport. It is a terrible country to be a poor woman with no male relatives.

I think we can do more than express discontent though. If a Saudi man will speak with me I will always ask him about this and challenge him.

I think every feminist/ liberal can do this at least.

[HAL9000]

womanofdulwich Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is a terrible country to be a poor woman with no male relatives.

Breast-feeding strangers can solve that problem, apparently.

Women threaten to breastfeed drivers if they aren't allowed to drive

[Ridgley]

Still the dark ages in some countries

[womanofdulwich]

imo its complete oppression of women. That is all it is. They can hide it and use religion as a screen but basically its oppression. Perpetrated by men.

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Religious adherence in Ireland went from

> near-absolute to negligible in a generation. You

> accord it too much respect in Saudi, mick

You're a clever man. This is not your greatest post. (I'm being kind)

[StraferJack]

and patronising

Want to expand on what your problem with the post is?

[Otta]

Yep, I can't believe you described religious adherence in Ireland as negligible. Perhaps not as strong as it once was, but negligible? That strikes me as wishful thinking.

Secondly, comparing Ireland to Saudi just doesn't work. There is extreme, and there is extreme.

I know you think religion is a load of mumbo jumbo, and you're probably right. To think a country of hard core religious people are on the brink of forgetting all that, is unbelievable. Hopefully there will be change, and progress, but even the women who want more rights, are fir the most part, still devout, and will put their religion first.

[Otta]

By the way, never meant to be patronising. I mean it when I say you're clever, and for the most part, your posts make a lot of sense, even when I disagree.

In my opinion though, that post beggers belief. Not something I'd often say about you.